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AIBU?

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AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors

1000 replies

Needmoresleep · 04/02/2025 09:18

Yes, you read it right!

At the end of their two foundation years (F1 & F2), young UK trained doctors are struggling to find work. They don’t want to go to Australia or NZ but for many this will be the only option. Seven or eight years study and work down the drain.
The UK supposedly has a shortage of doctors, so immigration rules have been amended to encourage overseas applicants. They then complete equally with those who are working in, or studied in the UK for both general entry level jobs (known informally as F3s) and for speciality training positions.

The average hard-working doctor does not stand much of a chance. Anecdotally even quite ordinary vacancies will attract hundreds if not thousands of on-line applications. The NHS does not keep statistics, but it appears that to keep numbers manageable many NHS Trusts will shut applications within a few hours. Tough for the junior doctor who is at work or sleeping off a night shift. The best from overseas will be very qualified with perhaps a decade of experience, and lots of additional bells and whistles, so it probably does not matter. They will score better so the chance of an interview for a young doctor who needs to build their own experience will be vanishingly low.

The expansion of medical school places, and allocation of some of these traditional entry level roles to Physician Associates is only exacerbating the problem.

Training positions are even more competitive. The Government has introduced a number of incentives to encourage applicants from overseas: exemptions from exams, guarantees on training and promises for British citizenship. Medical school places have been expanding without a parallel increase in training opportunities so bottlenecks would have happened anyway. In 2021 36% of new trainees were from medical schools outside the UK. In 2023 it was 41.5%. This trend is expected to be continuing, even accelerating.

A group of us have been on the higher education board since our DC were applying for medical school. They are now F2s spread across the country, working long hours for relatively little pay but enjoying the contribution they are making. None of them expect to get either a short term contract or a training position, so are applying to Australia or accepting that they will be reliant on zero hours NHS bank work covering staff absences.
As taxpayers we should be concerned that we are paying for medical schools, yet the NHS is not supporting their graduates into employment. We might also question why we are not giving priority to those already working in the NHS for the limited training slots. Doctors from elsewhere may be very good, but a significant proportion are then likely to leave to return home or to take up well paid private consultancy posts in either their home countries or in medical hubs like Dubai or Singapore.

Keir Starmer has said he will review sectors seeking labour from abroad to ensure that applications for the relevant visa routes, whether it’s the skilled worker route or the shortage occupation list will be balanced with expectations on training people here in our country. Wes Streeting seems to be refusing to answer questions on the topic. Whilst last week the BMA finally issued the following statement, albeit limited to training:
https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/bma-statement-on-speciality-training-application-bottlenecks

Any action will be too late for our DC. When they applied for medicine they did not realise that it would mean having to leave the country. The hope has to be that a way is found to retain those that follow and to allow our impressive young people to be able to return.

Press release icon

BMA statement on speciality training application bottlenecks - News and opinion - BMA

Statement from BMA chief officers.

https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/bma-statement-on-speciality-training-application-bottlenecks

OP posts:
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Tootsiecat · 04/02/2025 20:29

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wizzywig · 04/02/2025 20:31

Completelyjo · 04/02/2025 10:42

I know several doctors who moved to AUS shortly after qualifying in the UK but they didn’t do it because there were no positions available here, they did it for the hugely increased salary.

Agree with this. All the doctors I know have either gone to Australia/ Dubai or seriously looking into it. This is to get out of the nhs, earn more money and deal with what they hope are more appreciative patients (although I am sure you are all lovely)

bakebeans · 04/02/2025 20:34

YANBU.
same for nurses, midwives and all NHS staff.
each trust has a budget the same for you and I.
They have a spend budget for staff,
The government however continue to fool people to think it’s NHS recruitment issue. It’s not!
The government are absolutely clueless! The media post what a good wage junior doctors are on but in reality a manager in aldi or McDonalds is on more money. I’m not dismissing their salary but simply that a junior doctor may be saving lives for much less!
fuming! 😡

Wooleys · 04/02/2025 20:40

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This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

There is a perfectly good comparison. The higher tariff unis are asking for A*AA for both Law and Medicine whereas the lower tariff ones are comparable too.

Plenty of applicants for Law read STEM subjects indeed Maths is an excellent subject to offer for Law. I think you might have a fight on your hands if you try to claim that English or History are inherently 'harder' than Biology or Physics.

Neither subject is especially hard to get into uni for - the challenge comes later on in terms of career.

OneMorePiece · 04/02/2025 20:42

Wooleys · 04/02/2025 20:25

What I said about relative merit is separate OneMorePiece.

With the current online recruitment system, not sure how well you can measure merit when a CREST form can be signed off by medical personnel overseas. Perhaps speak to the younger resident doctors and NHS staff here who are having to handhold new senior IMGs who haven't ever stepped foot in the country before treating patients! Many will provide a better insight than I can.

Wooleys · 04/02/2025 20:43

But there are interviews too aren't there?

OneMorePiece · 04/02/2025 20:45

wizzywig · 04/02/2025 20:31

Agree with this. All the doctors I know have either gone to Australia/ Dubai or seriously looking into it. This is to get out of the nhs, earn more money and deal with what they hope are more appreciative patients (although I am sure you are all lovely)

The young doctors we are talking about want to stay in the country without moving to AUS or NZ. They deserve a chance to do so.

Thisismetooaswell · 04/02/2025 20:46

Arraminta · 04/02/2025 16:00

The sort of CV needed to be interviewed for specialist training, even as a GP, is extraordinary. Prizes, published papers, conferences. Some manage, but for many coming off a 13 hour busy night shift, hitting the books is not the priority. Yet these dedicated, resilient work-hard play hard doctors, who prioritise a work-life balance, should be forming the future backbone of the NHS. We need more than just academic doctors

Hmmm, presumably it is the doctors who are prepared to 'hit the books' after coming off a 13 hour shift, who win the jobs and better placements? Twas ever thus.

For these elite professional jobs there is no work life balance for the first few years. DD is doing her placement year with one of the Big Four and once she finishes university she will be accepted onto their graduate program. She beat hundreds (thousands?) of other applicants and the selection process was brutal. She's still only 20 but typically works a 14 hour day, works many weekends, and has had to miss so many family/friends events. And after a 14 hour day she is studying for exams. This is just the beginning, it will only get harder on the graduate program.

She is by no means unique in this.

All credit to her, she is obviously hard working and dedicated, It would be interesting to compare how much she earns, how much holiday she gets etc. And to note that if she gets something wrong through sheer exhaustion, it is unlikely anyone will die

Wooleys · 04/02/2025 20:49

Thisismetooaswell · 04/02/2025 20:46

All credit to her, she is obviously hard working and dedicated, It would be interesting to compare how much she earns, how much holiday she gets etc. And to note that if she gets something wrong through sheer exhaustion, it is unlikely anyone will die

Young doctors get probably almost exactly the same amount of holiday as this DD, at her stage of training.

They're required to take it pro rata through their placements but that's not a particular hardship really.

And this thing about people dying is far too dramatic. It doesn't help any argument at all. Not all people needing medical advice are on the cusp of death. I really don't know why everything has to be so extreme when doctors are involved. People go to A&E with earbuds stuck in their nose. It's not all life and death, a lot is very mundane.

OneMorePiece · 04/02/2025 20:49

Wooleys · 04/02/2025 20:43

But there are interviews too aren't there?

Yes, if you ever get to that stage. Young doctors here don't get that far as the online recruitment closes after a few hours due to a deluge of applicants so not necessarily on merit! You see our doctors were busy working in their shifts in the NHS and missed the opportunity to do so.

Wooleys · 04/02/2025 20:54

OneMorePiece · 04/02/2025 20:49

Yes, if you ever get to that stage. Young doctors here don't get that far as the online recruitment closes after a few hours due to a deluge of applicants so not necessarily on merit! You see our doctors were busy working in their shifts in the NHS and missed the opportunity to do so.

I think we're taking at cross purposes OneMorePiece. Are you talking about Clinical Fellow jobs? Sorry, I was talking about the allocation of training posts. I quite see the madness about the Clinical Fellow jobs.

Needmoresleep · 04/02/2025 20:56

That depends. DD is normally told at the start of each placement when she can take leave. Frustrating. No friends to go away when given five days in mid February.

the admin in her first placement screwed up. Leave requests were denied as they could not find cover. Then belatedly realised that this batch of F1s were leaving in a month and all had a full leave allowance they needed to take.

OP posts:
Soppypanda · 04/02/2025 20:59

They may have years of often unverifiable experience to the standards of - often - third world countries and practically never native language proficiency needed to practice medicine safely and with a high standard of patient care. Nor cultural understanding or genuine respect for this country. Research or papers all often bought and sold freely in the developing world. A large proportion will be "trained" in places where human life and, particularly, women's means nothing. They will have learnt that.
It is absolutely laudable and a scandal that someone gets paid to import this over our own UK trained doctors. The NHS bosses responsible for this need to lose their jobs and be persecuted for the damage to the NHS and patients they cause.
Many of those doctors would not be able to get comparable jobs in the commercial sector, not so much as being office juniors, just on account of their often poor English communication skills. Someone benefits from making those contracts.

Wooleys · 04/02/2025 20:59

Needmoresleep · 04/02/2025 20:56

That depends. DD is normally told at the start of each placement when she can take leave. Frustrating. No friends to go away when given five days in mid February.

the admin in her first placement screwed up. Leave requests were denied as they could not find cover. Then belatedly realised that this batch of F1s were leaving in a month and all had a full leave allowance they needed to take.

Yes very frustrating indeed. But in fact leave is a bit of a burning issue with the other DC too. I think young people are booted around a bit in general in these high octane jobs.

mumsneedwine · 04/02/2025 21:01

DDs friend was denied leave for his wedding day. Despite giving 9 months notice.

Wooleys · 04/02/2025 21:11

Yes same here. But then voted with her feet - no comeback. Some rota co-ordinators seem to be power mad but not only in the medical sector.

mumsneedwine · 04/02/2025 21:15

@Wooleys did she just walk out of a shift ?

Wooleys · 04/02/2025 21:18

No but she gave nine months notice too and the lunacy continued and she got very stressed and then gave about two months notice to the rota co-ordinator saying I will not be in that day or for the ten days afterwards so sort yourself a locum.

To be honest it's a pretty wet doctor who wouldn't do the same. Perhaps it's a standard test of mettle. It's too messed up to go along with though, that's for sure.

mumsneedwine · 04/02/2025 21:21

Wow. So she just refused to work and they accepted that ? Very unusual. There are a hell of a lot of 'wet' doctors in the NHS who would not leave their colleagues short staffed by just refusing to turn up.

Rota coordinators are often doctors trying their best too,

Wooleys · 04/02/2025 21:22

Two months notice is more than adequate. This particular co-ordinator was most definitely not a doctor. Colleagues were enormously supportive of the bride to be and enormously furious with the endless issues with the dweeb co-ordinator.

Wooleys · 04/02/2025 21:24

mumsneedwine · 04/02/2025 21:21

Wow. So she just refused to work and they accepted that ? Very unusual. There are a hell of a lot of 'wet' doctors in the NHS who would not leave their colleagues short staffed by just refusing to turn up.

Rota coordinators are often doctors trying their best too,

And for your own wedding mumsneedwine? Come on!

mumsneedwine · 04/02/2025 21:25

So they gave her the time off ? Because others are just refused and your only option is not to turn up, which would result in dismissal. Not being 'wet'. Just not being fired.
DDs friend had to arrange a shift swap which others did for him once realised it was his wedding. But otherwise he would have to go to work.

mumsneedwine · 04/02/2025 21:27

Come on where ? If you've never heard similar stories I don't believe you know anyone who works in the NHS 🤷‍♀️

Needmoresleep · 04/02/2025 21:28

Rotas were run by admin staff who sat in completely separate offices. DD had a two day email battle. The admin could not understand that she could not do a day shift an hour after finishing a run of nights. She finally said she would not appear, and if there were any repercussions she would take it to the Union.

Lots of other weirdnesses. NHS experience includes knowing how and when to stand up to admin.

OP posts:
Wooleys · 04/02/2025 21:29

mumsneedwine · 04/02/2025 21:27

Come on where ? If you've never heard similar stories I don't believe you know anyone who works in the NHS 🤷‍♀️

I've just said I knew of one identical case. The way to go for an objectively unmissable event is to do exactly what this young doctor did. It's too ridiculous for words to be told no for your own wedding with many months notice. So you just say fuck off/ no.

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