AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors

[Needmoresleep]

Yes, you read it right!

At the end of their two foundation years (F1 & F2), young UK trained doctors are struggling to find work. They don’t want to go to Australia or NZ but for many this will be the only option. Seven or eight years study and work down the drain.
The UK supposedly has a shortage of doctors, so immigration rules have been amended to encourage overseas applicants. They then complete equally with those who are working in, or studied in the UK for both general entry level jobs (known informally as F3s) and for speciality training positions.

The average hard-working doctor does not stand much of a chance. Anecdotally even quite ordinary vacancies will attract hundreds if not thousands of on-line applications. The NHS does not keep statistics, but it appears that to keep numbers manageable many NHS Trusts will shut applications within a few hours. Tough for the junior doctor who is at work or sleeping off a night shift. The best from overseas will be very qualified with perhaps a decade of experience, and lots of additional bells and whistles, so it probably does not matter. They will score better so the chance of an interview for a young doctor who needs to build their own experience will be vanishingly low.

The expansion of medical school places, and allocation of some of these traditional entry level roles to Physician Associates is only exacerbating the problem.

Training positions are even more competitive. The Government has introduced a number of incentives to encourage applicants from overseas: exemptions from exams, guarantees on training and promises for British citizenship. Medical school places have been expanding without a parallel increase in training opportunities so bottlenecks would have happened anyway. In 2021 36% of new trainees were from medical schools outside the UK. In 2023 it was 41.5%. This trend is expected to be continuing, even accelerating.

A group of us have been on the higher education board since our DC were applying for medical school. They are now F2s spread across the country, working long hours for relatively little pay but enjoying the contribution they are making. None of them expect to get either a short term contract or a training position, so are applying to Australia or accepting that they will be reliant on zero hours NHS bank work covering staff absences.
As taxpayers we should be concerned that we are paying for medical schools, yet the NHS is not supporting their graduates into employment. We might also question why we are not giving priority to those already working in the NHS for the limited training slots. Doctors from elsewhere may be very good, but a significant proportion are then likely to leave to return home or to take up well paid private consultancy posts in either their home countries or in medical hubs like Dubai or Singapore.

Keir Starmer has said he will review sectors seeking labour from abroad to ensure that applications for the relevant visa routes, whether it’s the skilled worker route or the shortage occupation list will be balanced with expectations on training people here in our country. Wes Streeting seems to be refusing to answer questions on the topic. Whilst last week the BMA finally issued the following statement, albeit limited to training:
https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/bma-statement-on-speciality-training-application-bottlenecks

Any action will be too late for our DC. When they applied for medicine they did not realise that it would mean having to leave the country. The hope has to be that a way is found to retain those that follow and to allow our impressive young people to be able to return.

That's scandalous! They should stop accepting so many students to do medical degrees if there's no jobs!

My DC is recent and the costs weren't nearly covered and I couldn't help that much unfortunately. That's why he worked.

Absolutely they should.

It’s interesting seeing all these valid comments, but then again none of you gave two hoots when it was taxi drivers, factory workers, plumbers and road sweepers complaining about exactly the same issues. You called them all racist right wing bigots who were too thick to vote.

Honestly it’s very difficult to stomach. Good luck.

Yes, the issue is that although the DEI scheme might have been well intended, it's imperfect especially as the countries that lots of these NHS staff are coming from don't have DEI schemes. Usually these doctors come from wealthier backgrounds compared to others from their country so UK doctors and UK IMGs have had to overcome more hurdles than the new recruits.

Currently I understand new IMG recruits can have all their experience overseas and the relevant forms for recruitment signed off in their home countries. From a patient safety perspective, I am not sure I am comfortable with that.

It’s horrific and doesn’t seem to be well known about amongst the general public. What I don’t understand is how the demoralising working conditions, high levels of suicide and burnout, additional study and difficulties securing employment were not known to the brightest and the best students when applying to medical school and seem to come as a surprise now. And a surprise to (shoot my down in flames) many of their parents who seem hugely invested in the process of applying and working if the threads on mumsnet are anything to go by.

@Donewiththisshit because when our children speed 8 years ago medicine was not like this. Yes it was hard but at least they'd have a job. No one ever mentioned unemployment.

Applied. Things have changed so much in last 2 years

Who are you talking about? I don't think anyone here did. Unfortunately some politicians had their own agenda and a lot of people fell for it. As a user of the NHS, aren't you worried this is happening? I am so that's why I am posting before it gets worse.

My son applied for an architect position overseas. He had to wait three months while the job was advertised on the island. When they couldn't fill the position they were allowed to advertise overseas.

That would help.

I guess there could be a case for saying that if medics from other countries want to come to the UK and are selected ahead of UK graduates on merit, then that's not necessarily bad for people's healthcare in the UK. It's obviously a problem if the internationals are less good than the home grown medics. But tbh immigrants have a reasonable track record, historically.

As far as I’m aware the BMA are against increasing the number of doctor training places (probably to preserve their finite numbers and bargaining power!)

@PeoniesAreMyFavouriteFlower Yes my DH's experience at that time too. He had MRCS and then had to retrain as there just weren't any training posts. He then got his MRCEM as at the time Emergency Medicine had the most jobs.

I'm a GP married to a corporate solicitor and they're both so tough in their own ways. We've been together through all of medical school, GDL, paralegal year, training contract, moved house 5 times for my medical training while he commuted in and worked silly hours! I hope they both do well in their careers. Im leaving GP due to a lot of what is discussed above - I wish I could stay and fix things but with 2 small kids and DH working all hours as a junior associate something had to give.
The helplessness of being at the mercy of national recruitment / NHSE incompetence leaves DH speechless though, and how late the bottle necks are. Prospective lawyers may not get a training contract, but few are unemployed after that point. GPs with 10 years+ medical training just can't get jobs now.

@Wooleys read my previous post. You misunderstand what I am calling for. Just want the powers that be to redress the balance.

It's absolutely scandalous and (speaking as the parent of 2 bright, passionate and caring young medics) extremely depressing.

Apart from anything else, it's a crazy illogical waste of the country's money. The government estimates it costs near on a quarter of a million quid to train each doctor in the UK. We are all paying for these doctors to be trained to work in our NHS, partly out of our taxes (and no doubt a great deal of support added from the banks of mum and dad). Yet these high achieving, talented and well-trained young doctors are then finding it impossible to find work in the UK and either leaving the country or leaving medicine completely. Meanwhile, hospitals are recruiting highly qualified IMGs instead, who in turn have left their own countries medical systems behind. The NHS is under-funded as it is and we've ended up in a situation that costs the country more but to the detriment of our UK trained doctors.

Personally, it just makes me very sad. DS2 is an F2 and he wants to stay in the UK but realistically he knows his chances are low so he is planning to go to Australia along with nearly all his cohort of friends from his year (a couple have managed to get amazing jobs in the US). This is not what he hoped or believed would happen when he chose to go to med school 8 years ago).

Yes and no. In both groups some are better then others.

Applications will be scored. Overseas applicants well be supported by recruitment agencies who help maximise any likely score. Some things, like Gold Medals will add a lot of points. Incredibly hard to achieve in the UK, you really need to be top of the national cohort. Gold medal in other systems are appear less rare but will give the same additional points. Ditto being published in the Kuching medical journal vs the BMJ.

Busy F2s are on their own. Come off shift, make an application. No support other than perhaps some informal mentoring. (Which is why the DC of doctors seem to do better. They will have a better understanding of what is needed.) If there are 800+ applications there is fat chance the F2’s unpolished application will score sufficiently to get to interview.

There's still no market analogy.

It's deliberate government policy to recruit abroad, to allow equivalence of qualifications, even though there are plenty of domestic candidates whose qualifications are impeccable, who speak English and manynither UK languages, who are used to the NHS system, and who can easily show proof of work ethic. The policy is a distortion of the market that should be remedied.

Simply google ‘MTAS disaster’ of 2007, this was happening way before your children started. I’m not dismissing how horrific things are, it’s just awful. The point I’m making is I’m always surprised that the state of medicine and the direction of travel comes as a shock. I always wonder why the brightest people (and some parents on mumsnet who seem super knowledgable about the whole process) don’t make themselves aware of this at the very start.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/features/3633587/How-this-government-views-junior-doctors-has-left-me-no-choice-but-to-move-abroad.html

That's not true

@Donewiththisshit ok so our kids were all
A bit stupid and should have realised they'd be unemployed with £100,000+ debt. Silly things.

What I said about relative merit is separate OneMorePiece.

@TreeSquirrel BMA and most of the Royal Colleges have been asking for more training spots. NHS says no. While expanding numbers of PAs - who cost more

Indeed. The University I lecture at qualified a cohort of 60 midwives in the summer. The local Trust where they did the bulk of their placements advertised 3 jobs.

Another cohort of 60-odd is behind them and another just started behind them. It is madness.

Nursing & midwifery attract many mature students who are often unable to relocate their families for work (esp on newly qualified salaries) & even if they could relocate, there’s no jobs anywhere anyway.

I am shocked when I see newly qualified band 5 jobs advertised in NZ, Oz etc. Time was they wanted 5yrs at Band 6 minimum.

https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorsUK/comments/1iaax1q/foi_2025_speciality_training_data

Some figures of what has been happening over the last 2 years!!!!! IMGs have doubled. Merit or not, the IMG explosion is alarming!