Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors

1000 replies

Needmoresleep · 04/02/2025 09:18

Yes, you read it right!

At the end of their two foundation years (F1 & F2), young UK trained doctors are struggling to find work. They don’t want to go to Australia or NZ but for many this will be the only option. Seven or eight years study and work down the drain.
The UK supposedly has a shortage of doctors, so immigration rules have been amended to encourage overseas applicants. They then complete equally with those who are working in, or studied in the UK for both general entry level jobs (known informally as F3s) and for speciality training positions.

The average hard-working doctor does not stand much of a chance. Anecdotally even quite ordinary vacancies will attract hundreds if not thousands of on-line applications. The NHS does not keep statistics, but it appears that to keep numbers manageable many NHS Trusts will shut applications within a few hours. Tough for the junior doctor who is at work or sleeping off a night shift. The best from overseas will be very qualified with perhaps a decade of experience, and lots of additional bells and whistles, so it probably does not matter. They will score better so the chance of an interview for a young doctor who needs to build their own experience will be vanishingly low.

The expansion of medical school places, and allocation of some of these traditional entry level roles to Physician Associates is only exacerbating the problem.

Training positions are even more competitive. The Government has introduced a number of incentives to encourage applicants from overseas: exemptions from exams, guarantees on training and promises for British citizenship. Medical school places have been expanding without a parallel increase in training opportunities so bottlenecks would have happened anyway. In 2021 36% of new trainees were from medical schools outside the UK. In 2023 it was 41.5%. This trend is expected to be continuing, even accelerating.

A group of us have been on the higher education board since our DC were applying for medical school. They are now F2s spread across the country, working long hours for relatively little pay but enjoying the contribution they are making. None of them expect to get either a short term contract or a training position, so are applying to Australia or accepting that they will be reliant on zero hours NHS bank work covering staff absences.
As taxpayers we should be concerned that we are paying for medical schools, yet the NHS is not supporting their graduates into employment. We might also question why we are not giving priority to those already working in the NHS for the limited training slots. Doctors from elsewhere may be very good, but a significant proportion are then likely to leave to return home or to take up well paid private consultancy posts in either their home countries or in medical hubs like Dubai or Singapore.

Keir Starmer has said he will review sectors seeking labour from abroad to ensure that applications for the relevant visa routes, whether it’s the skilled worker route or the shortage occupation list will be balanced with expectations on training people here in our country. Wes Streeting seems to be refusing to answer questions on the topic. Whilst last week the BMA finally issued the following statement, albeit limited to training:
https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/bma-statement-on-speciality-training-application-bottlenecks

Any action will be too late for our DC. When they applied for medicine they did not realise that it would mean having to leave the country. The hope has to be that a way is found to retain those that follow and to allow our impressive young people to be able to return.

Press release icon

BMA statement on speciality training application bottlenecks - News and opinion - BMA

Statement from BMA chief officers.

https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/bma-statement-on-speciality-training-application-bottlenecks

OP posts:
Thread gallery
70
Destiny123 · 04/02/2025 21:30

Wooleys · 04/02/2025 19:06

DC's debt is from four years so the same as any STEM courses. DC worked through their course. I think possibly that helped them manage time to study alongside F1 and F2 work.

Edited

Many medical schools ban term time jobs, can get thrown out if caught

Wooleys · 04/02/2025 21:32

My DC worked every Sunday from 8am. He wasn't sacked by his university.

Destiny123 · 04/02/2025 21:32

wizzywig · 04/02/2025 20:31

Agree with this. All the doctors I know have either gone to Australia/ Dubai or seriously looking into it. This is to get out of the nhs, earn more money and deal with what they hope are more appreciative patients (although I am sure you are all lovely)

Yea 50% of my cohort are now in oz, pay is double ours, rent is the same, training programmes are 5y unlike our 7+, guaranteed leave when requested in big chunks etc very appealing

HighStars · 04/02/2025 21:32

Calling the shots on shifts sounds like a parallel universe where plumbers cost £30/hour? 😂

ShortSighted101 · 04/02/2025 21:34

Also why is it wet not to take unauthorised annual leave?

Why do we have to blame the person for dreadful work place practices?

It all seems a bit macho or like that monty python sketch about going down a mine. Just because some people can successfully thwart the rota supervisor with out getting fired and stay up all night getting papers published in leading journals to gain their speciality training ahead of other doctors in some mad points system that seems to have been designed to prioritise overseas applicants doesn't mean this is a sane way to try to run a health service.

And lets not forget the UK nurses and midwives that seem to be having similar issues.

bakebeans · 04/02/2025 21:35

please listen to the OP.
Those junior doctors (with the correct support and training) will be the next GP, Consultant, Surgeon, anaesthetist.
They will be responsible for your cardiology consultation, the anaesthetist who puts you to sleep for your routine operation.
if the support is not in place now what do you think will be in the future!

HermioneHerman · 04/02/2025 21:36

It's very heartening to see these issues being discussed outside of medical circles finally and thank you to all the knowledgeable parents and doctors who have made supportive comments here.

I'm a mature medical student with children so not your typical 18 year old entrant, and I worked in the NHS before starting my studies too. So I was definitely informed and knew what I was signing up for in the large part. Many of the younger ones have an idea about the poor pay and conditions, competitive processes, relentless grind of exams etc but they don't REALLY get it until much later when the buzz of 'making' it to med school wears off.

But the goal posts are now moving all the time and where there used to be less popular/more safe/lower competition specialties like GP and emergency medicine (not easier in any way, just larger cohorts and not the smaller ultra-competitive surgical and procedural programmes) are now hard to get into. Several years ago, some GP positions were even advertised with golden hello payments as incentive and now you may not even get an interview let alone an actual job/training number unless your exam scores are the best of the best. There are even practical issues with not enough interviewer capacity to interview all candidates who meet cut-off scores in other specialties (looking at you, paediatrics) so even top-level performance may not be enough if there's just no space.

I do appreciate that other occupations can be equally demanding and competitive as some have mentioned but it's not really a fair comparison. Someone working for a Big 4/Magic Circle/Bulge Bracket-type corporate organisation is very well-supported in the main, despite the extremely long hours, huge work volume and expectations. They will have all food provided, taxis home in the early hours, on-site gyms and services, all professional fees covered, all professional development such as additional qualifications and conferences etc, all covered, any required exam fees covered. Medics get none of that, every expense is out of pocket and we're talking thousands and thousands of pounds for fees, indemnity, CPD and exams. There are no comfortable, attractive, air conditioned offices, not even decent kitchens, places to store food or personal items and access to doctor's messes/break rooms (as well as parking) are charged for. I know someone will now say, well NHS is public sector so that's tax payers money but the comparison between the demands of the jobs are made all the time so its only fair to be real about it. They are not comparable in most other places ways.

I've gone on too much so won't weigh in on the IMG debate which others have already covered well. Suffice to say that all other countries prioritise their own medical graduates for competitive training programmes first and British graduates (including international students studying here) are just asking for the same. It's sad that I'll almost certainly be forced to Australia in a few years, as I luckily hold dual citizenship but I still won't be prioritised as a UK graduate so who knows what will happens to this oldie!

Wooleys · 04/02/2025 21:36

It's absolutely mad to be refused leave to attend your own wedding and if your colleagues like you no-one is going to do anything other than support you. If you give many months notice there is no excuse in the world which could justify blocking you. If it was a consultant organised rota then there's also no way any decent consultant dealing with a decent colleague would refuse you. The issue here was an admin who had her own God complex.

Destiny123 · 04/02/2025 21:37

mumsneedwine · 04/02/2025 21:01

DDs friend was denied leave for his wedding day. Despite giving 9 months notice.

I've had mates work through 13h night shift before her wedding as told "technically" was working the day before and couldn't get a swap

Had a mate declined leave for his own wedding as "had to be fair and randomly sllocate to all those on the team that applied for said date"... most of which applied for leave to attend said wedding lol

CherubEarrings · 04/02/2025 21:39

Wooleys · 04/02/2025 20:49

Young doctors get probably almost exactly the same amount of holiday as this DD, at her stage of training.

They're required to take it pro rata through their placements but that's not a particular hardship really.

And this thing about people dying is far too dramatic. It doesn't help any argument at all. Not all people needing medical advice are on the cusp of death. I really don't know why everything has to be so extreme when doctors are involved. People go to A&E with earbuds stuck in their nose. It's not all life and death, a lot is very mundane.

Edited

Your ignorance is shocking. Something you would probably see as trivial such as a prescribing error could kill a stable patient. Easily done if rub off your feet in A&E which can be like a war zone.

Do lawyers have to have Guardians of Safe Working?

Confrontayshunme · 04/02/2025 21:41

I just want to point out that there is no fast-track to British citizenship for doctors from overseas. It's 5 years of a skilled work with limited leave, then one year of indefinite leave to remain before they can apply. So 6+ years. Same as numerous other routes.

Wooleys · 04/02/2025 21:43

CherubEarrings · 04/02/2025 21:39

Your ignorance is shocking. Something you would probably see as trivial such as a prescribing error could kill a stable patient. Easily done if rub off your feet in A&E which can be like a war zone.

Do lawyers have to have Guardians of Safe Working?

Edited

CherubEarrings I think I'm realistic rather than ignorant. Not every person seeking NHS treatment is at serious risk of imminent death.

Obviously if you want to chuck in clinical negligence then yes - any patient could die.

But I was swerving the fanciful.

FrutenGlee · 04/02/2025 21:43

YANBU OP

Wooleys · 04/02/2025 21:44

Destiny123 · 04/02/2025 21:37

I've had mates work through 13h night shift before her wedding as told "technically" was working the day before and couldn't get a swap

Had a mate declined leave for his own wedding as "had to be fair and randomly sllocate to all those on the team that applied for said date"... most of which applied for leave to attend said wedding lol

Crazy! Just say no!

HermioneHerman · 04/02/2025 21:48

Trusts actually can't deny leave if it's for 'life changing events' like weddings and sufficient notice has been given. Not to say that they don't try and I've certainly heard it lot when rotas aren't managed by medics (and who would want the additional stress and pain of taking on the unpaid extra work in reality). When this happens, medics on the 2016 contract can invoke the terms citing 'life-changing event' and get their local BMA rep involved if needs be. But having to fight for your own wedding day off is absolutely mad in the first place. Surely something else that doesn't happen in the private sector!

strawberrybubblegum · 04/02/2025 21:49

Twinklytoots · 04/02/2025 19:43

It’s interesting seeing all these valid comments, but then again none of you gave two hoots when it was taxi drivers, factory workers, plumbers and road sweepers complaining about exactly the same issues. You called them all racist right wing bigots who were too thick to vote.

Honestly it’s very difficult to stomach. Good luck.

It costs UK tax payers £200k to train a doctor. That's on top of the fees and loans they pay themselves. That's a huge investment - taking 6 years - to train up an incredibly highly-skilled, hard-to-replace specialist.

Then after that £200k 6 year long tax-payer investment, the only employer in the UK - the state-run NHS - doesn't bother to give them a job, so they move abroad.

It's not really the same as taxi drivers, factory workers, plumbers and road sweepers having to compete for jobs.

CherubEarrings · 04/02/2025 21:52

Wooleys · 04/02/2025 21:43

CherubEarrings I think I'm realistic rather than ignorant. Not every person seeking NHS treatment is at serious risk of imminent death.

Obviously if you want to chuck in clinical negligence then yes - any patient could die.

But I was swerving the fanciful.

Edited

I don't think you can comprehend the level of responsibility and risk that doctors face with every interaction with a patient.

Walk a mile in our shoes and you would see things very differently.

The job is amazing but beyond stressful.

OneMorePiece · 04/02/2025 21:54

bakebeans · 04/02/2025 21:35

please listen to the OP.
Those junior doctors (with the correct support and training) will be the next GP, Consultant, Surgeon, anaesthetist.
They will be responsible for your cardiology consultation, the anaesthetist who puts you to sleep for your routine operation.
if the support is not in place now what do you think will be in the future!

I agree. I would rather see a UK trained doctor given the choice. Saw new IMG recruit recently who couldn't speak English properly. Had to rephrase my questions several times. Yet, she only provided a general answer. Asked for the consultant. He wasn't around. Not acceptable given it was about a potentially cancerous cyst. She performed a procedure that caused me a headache and I was in pain for two days because she accidentally yanked the nasendoscope as she moved to press a button. I had the same procedure done a few years earlier without such agony.

Wooleys · 04/02/2025 21:55

CherubEarrings · 04/02/2025 21:52

I don't think you can comprehend the level of responsibility and risk that doctors face with every interaction with a patient.

Walk a mile in our shoes and you would see things very differently.

The job is amazing but beyond stressful.

Edited

This completely depends on your specialty.

For most specialties, you'd have to be a very nervous or not competent doctor to think every patient was potentially in any reasonable danger of death.

PlopSofa · 04/02/2025 21:57

Wonderberry · 04/02/2025 19:12

Yanbu

I'm a resident doctor, and of all the F2s in my hospital (circa 40), not a single one has secured a training post. That's right: 0/40 is continuing training in the NHS.

Some are going to New Zealand/Australia, some are leaving medicine, some are planning to give Botox and fillers instead of clinical practice, some are trying to find a staff grade job.

We had one staff grade job in our department and they closed it shortly after advertising as there were already over 800 applicants. For a perfectly normal job.

It's a travesty how resident doctors are being treated, and poor workforce planning as well as being costly (due to needing increased locums due to a shortage of trainees, despite many qualified candidates).

@AsTearsGoBy

enough proof for you?

CherubEarrings · 04/02/2025 21:58

Wooleys · 04/02/2025 21:55

This completely depends on your specialty.

For most specialties, you'd have to be a very nervous or not competent doctor to think every patient was potentially in any reasonable danger of death.

Interesting perspective. Are you a doctor?

PlopSofa · 04/02/2025 21:58

Wooleys · 04/02/2025 21:32

My DC worked every Sunday from 8am. He wasn't sacked by his university.

Maybe he just wasn’t found out?

OneMorePiece · 04/02/2025 21:59

PlopSofa · 04/02/2025 21:57

@AsTearsGoBy

enough proof for you?

You know I was just about to say the same thing! AsTearsGoneBy has been surprisingly quiet until the last couple of pages.

Wooleys · 04/02/2025 22:00

PlopSofa · 04/02/2025 21:58

Maybe he just wasn’t found out?

Perhaps. Who knows? I guess their concern would be if my DC has fallen short with attendance or work which wasn't the case, fortunately.

OneMorePiece · 04/02/2025 22:01

OneMorePiece · 04/02/2025 21:59

You know I was just about to say the same thing! AsTearsGoneBy has been surprisingly quiet until the last couple of pages.

That's why I stopped engaging! AsTears trying to wind us up! 😂

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.