I do not believe in gender identity.

[SernieBanders]

There are two sexes: male and female. Occasionally, that matters.

There is no such thing as an innate gender identity—no internal essence that makes someone more inclined to wear dresses and sip wine, or football boots and down pints. Those are cultural stereotypes, not proof of some mystical gendered soul.

The idea of gender identity is sexist, misogynistic, and regressive. It reinforces outdated norms instead of challenging them. Women do not need an inner feeling of womanhood to be women. Men do not need a gender identity to be men. Sex is real. Stereotypes are not.

I hope with the flurry of cultural changes, legal challenges, scientific findings and executive orders in the last ~12 months, more people feel able to stand up and be counted, and say - No More.

> why they DO NOT believe in gender identity?
That's simple
They are wrong

There are two forms of gender identity, and bad science and ignorant people have (sometimes deliberately) conflated the two

One is purely cultural - girls play with dollies, boys play with trains women become nurses, teachers, housewives, men become doctors, professors, worker
I'm sure that 99% of people in this discussion think that's a load of oppressive balls and are glad it's well on the way to being consigned to the 'women as property' dustbin of cultural history
The other is what your brain 'feels' or 'tells you' it is
The latter is real, and I have already posted two inks to sites from well respected organisations about it, one of which included a (long) summation of the current thinking on why this sometimes does not match the physical sex

Because any post or link that claims that intersex people do not is exist is wrong, bad science, and hateful

Could you please stop just plonking down links that you don't show that you even understand and engage with the posts.

At this point you are merely spamming the thread with misinformation that you cannot engage with and it looks like you have very little knowledge on this topic.

Please show us on this link EXACTLY where it says that a human has produced both sperm and eggs.

And if you refer to ovotestes, I recommend that you go and do your own research to see exactly what having ovotestes means for a patient.

I don’t think anyone is arguing that DSDs don’t exist, only whether people with DSDs are intersex.

Is someone with Jacobs Syndrome (XYY) intersex? Turners Syndrome (X0)? I’d argue that neither condition makes a person intersex. And I’m inclined to say the same about Klinefelters Syndrome (XXY).

The only DSDs I’m personally unsure about are Swyers Syndrome, CAIS and extremely rare cases of chimerism derived from the fusion of a male and a female embryo.

Incidentally, some people in the UK with DSDs have made it clear that they do not want to be represented by Stonewall. Perhaps being included under the LGBTQI+ umbrella doesn’t work well for them?

Actually, you are the one who is acting in a hateful way by leveraging people's medical conditions as if they somehow disprove that sex is indeed binary.

NO PEOPLE PRODUCE BOTH GAMETES. Therefore their body is formed around the production of one gamete over the other, whether this production actually happens or not.

"who exhibits female genitalia but whose ovaries are vestigial and are reabsorbed during their late teens?"

And link up the case study that shows that this has happened, and at what stage of development this has happened.

And if you cannot link up the case where this has happened and has been discussed, then take us through the exact process that at puberty someone's ovaries are absorbed into their body. How does this happen?

Ultimately, sure, gender is a social construct. Women don't have to love pink and doing housework and wearing makeup, and men don't have to love football and beer and physical labour. We made great progress with this idea, so I thought. The trans movement is so regressive in its stereotyping, but they seem to use 'gender is a social construct' to somehow advance their argument. It's counterproductive.

Regardless, even if they want to use the idea of gender to choose their identity, it's regressive at worst but moot in reality. Sex is an unavoidable and unchangeable fact and what is important is sex-based rights. So sure, if a man wants to subscribe to socially constructed gender ideals and "feels" like a woman, so let them. But they are, by sex, men. And vice versa.

I don't insist I know everything. You seem to have a rather strange polarised view on this - either people know 'nothing or everything'. I would suggest that this is absolutism that is pushing that claim onto others.

"You post, effectively "nyaa nyaa nyaa no no no""

And this statement is just projection of your own posts. You have not engaged at all, you plonk down links and tell people to 'educate themselves.' Yet you links, certainly around differences of sex development are not supporting your claims.

No poster on this thread has denied that people with differences with sex development exist.

They have tried to tell you that chromosomes are only part of how medical experts categorise human sex.

There IS only two human sexes. There are no humans that have not been categorised as being male or female.

So sure, if a man wants to subscribe to socially constructed gender ideals and "feels" like a woman, so let them.

@lilyanna80 Should taxpayer's money be used to fund these feelings and desires? This may include lifelong medicalisation with severe irreversible side effects, multiple surgeries, fertility treatments and in some cases surgeries for de-transitioners who regretted their decision to undergo gender reconstruction later in life.

I completely agree with you, the quote you mentioned missed out the part where I continue to write; "but they are, by sex, men."
They can think it all they like, but they're not women - is my point. And no, I am very against all of the medicals that surround this pursuit to be something they can never, ever be.

There is no such thing as "lady feels" or "Man feels"

How on earth could a woman have the slightest idea how a man feels?

You can't, because they are female.

It's not possible, not in the slightest.

Intersex people exist

the proper term is DSDs differences in sexual development

Nobody is "in-between sexes" hence we don't use the word intersex

every human on earth is male or female.

That every human on earth is one and only one of the binary MALE or FEMALE. Nothing in between.

I think it's your rudeness

Ignoring peoples evidenced answers

and blatant whataboutisms that is putting peoples backs up

Actually @snowmichael I have realised who you remind me of. There was an American Congressman Todd Akin in 2012 who stated that 'rape cannot cause pregnancy'

He apparently believed, despite there being no scientific evidence to suggest it might be the case, that if a woman got pregnant it can't have been 'legitimate rape'

He actually said out loud that 'the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down'.

Clearly also a load of bollocks, and similar to you banging on about people with differences in sexual development and ovaries being absorbed back into the body,

Nothing to do with trans of course, but DSDs can sometimes be more complicated than you seem to imagine? Genitalia may be ambiguous, but male and female gonads, or a merging of the two, can be found in a single individual (rarely).

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34469891/

Since posts are now disappearing, let's have a look at the links being plopped on this thread without engagement around differences of sex development.

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/16324-intersex

This is a general 'primer' about differences of sex development. I don't believe that the people you are telling to 'educate themselves' will disagree much with this. Except in the rounding up to 2% and indeed the inclusion of the conditions that in no way have ambiguity about what sex the person is, such as merely having a urethral opening half way done a penis in a male person who has no other body parts that show different than expected development. It also seeks to bring in gender identity into the discussion which I would think someone who has not read widely about this will find perplexing.

What it doesn't state is that any person is neither male or female or that any medical expert in the field will say that a person is neither male or female!

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/B9780444632333000245

This article goes through different differences in sex development. It states clearly which sex each of those mention affect.

What it doesn't state is that any person is neither male or female or that any medical expert in the field will say that a person is neither male or female!

A poster has repeatedly just plopped these two links over and over in a spamming way without actual engagement and made all sorts of unfounded accusations based on two links that do not support their posts.

People with differences of sex development absolutely exist. I don't believe any poster has denied this. What people have been trying to get the poster to engage with is:

-that people with differences of sex development are still either male or female.

-that when categorising humans into either sex, medical experts test for a selection of indicators that include chromosomes, body parts and other indicators. The experts look at whether a body is formed around the production of small gametes or large gametes, regardless of whether that gamete has been produced or will be in the future. No human produces both.

-that people with differences of sex development do not make sex categories in humans into any 'spectrum' what is understood is that each sex category has a wide range of body variations that still fit that sex category.

-that people with differences of sex development ask not to be politicised by other groups to try to destabilise the known science that there are only two sexes.

Humans only come in either male or female sexes. There are about .0018% of humans who require extensive tests to establish their sex category. This still does not change the fact that humans are only male or female and every one of them can be categorised as belonging to either the male or female sex.

Plus the only significance between those with differences in sex development and people who have transgender identities is that some people with differences in sex development also have a transgender identity. That is it. As far as I can see, that is the only relevance apart from a group of people trying to politicise those with DSDs bodies as some kind of 'explainer' for people having transgender identities.

People with ovotestes will still be able to categorised as being either male or female after experts have done testing to understand more about that unique patient.

In no cases for instance will the patient produce both gametes. And if they only have tissue of both sets of gonads, the experts will assess other indicators in the body.

Your opinions are a) wrong - quote as wrong as that US arsehole, b) irrelevant to a discussion on science - just as irrelevant as that US arsehole
Hmmm wonder who reminds people of a US arsehole?

> yes, people with the genitalia of both sexes don't exist.
Saying certain types of people who demonstrably exist do not is not only wrong, it's very hateful

> There IS only two human sexes. There are no humans that have not been categorised as being male or female.
Saying that intersex people, with genitalia of both sexes do not exist is both wrong and hateful

DSD is not the same as intersex
Some here are denying the existence of people that don't fit their beliefs