I do not believe in gender identity.

[SernieBanders]

There are two sexes: male and female. Occasionally, that matters.

There is no such thing as an innate gender identity—no internal essence that makes someone more inclined to wear dresses and sip wine, or football boots and down pints. Those are cultural stereotypes, not proof of some mystical gendered soul.

The idea of gender identity is sexist, misogynistic, and regressive. It reinforces outdated norms instead of challenging them. Women do not need an inner feeling of womanhood to be women. Men do not need a gender identity to be men. Sex is real. Stereotypes are not.

I hope with the flurry of cultural changes, legal challenges, scientific findings and executive orders in the last ~12 months, more people feel able to stand up and be counted, and say - No More.

Apparently there is over 130 genders. Yet, when we start drilling down with people who tell others that gender identities are real and should be prioritised ahead of sex when sex matters, none of those people can discuss how that works with all the genders. They can only focus on two. Their discussion usually avoids mention of non-binary gender identity as well.

I think it is safe to assume it is because whenever those genders are brought into the discussion, it becomes very clear that gender identity is only a philosophical belief that a person has about their identity.

And then that leads to the question, why should any person's philosophical belief be prioritised above the needs of female people when someone's sex really does matter.

I get what you are saying, but feel I have to disagree.

‘Identity’ is about belonging: its about feeling a connection with a particular group and wishing to be perceived as belonging to that group. ‘Identity’ as a social construct is deeply connected to social psychology - Tajfel’s ingroup/outgroup research for instance. I do not ‘identify’ as female as it is not important to me to be associsated with ‘females’ as a group nor to be perceived as ‘female’. In fact, as I grew up in a family largely made up of Iranian asylees escaping female oppression under Khomeini in the 70s and 80s. For me being female was not something I wished to either identify into nor be confined by through having it imposed upon me.

So, for my aunts, being female meant oppression, arranged marriage, being denied an education in their native country. It was about being seen as weak, controlled/controllable, about being perceived as chattels and baby producers/carers. It had nothing to do with sparkly nail varnish or high heels. In fact none of the incredible, clever women in my life wore any of those things. In order to identify with the women in my life I aspired to university, a career that would accommodate children, having a partner who valued me, and eventually doing a PhD (one of my aunts was a consultant for NASA, so the bar for achievement was/is very high).

For my trans-identifying daughter being ‘uncomfortable as we are’ came about when puberty collided with lock down, the MeToo movement which told her she was vulnerable as a woman, the rise of social media and a side helping of bullying/teasing for being a lesbian autistic girl. I can totally imagine what is it like to feel displaced/uncomfortable because people do not see you the way you wish to be perceived… but I know from watching the 7-8 year struggle of my child - and seeing her emerge, scarred and broken, out the other side - that denying the material reality of your sex, or race or whatever makes no difference to how others perceive you or to how you feel about yourself. To collude with the tenets of gender ideology helps no one, least of all the fragile, vulnerable, often autistic, young people that this ideology purports to support and protect.

Thanks for that informed and interesting reply. I think we actually agree. I maybe didn't express my view very well! It's a difficult subject to tackle (as demonstrated by the discussion here).

💯 agreed.

It's not gender identity but it is possible to argue that your interests are gender-conforming (in a generalised way; of course on an individual level many men also like ballet and wine and have no interest in more masculine pursuits and many women do not like ballet or make-up).

Gender identity is e.g. a man who likes skirts or ballet deciding this means he must 'really' be a woman and that his gender identity is female, rather than just concluding that he's a man who likes skirts or ballet.

@CautiousLurker01 I’m so sorry your daughter has suffered in this way. The harm that has been done to our young people is unforgivable. We too have a younger non trans identifying child whose foundations have been rocked by the actions of their trans identifying sibling.
Of all the challenges we thought we would have to navigate as parents this was never on our radar. It’s not county lines tearing our family apart, it is gender doctors!

You don't seem to understand what the articles you are posting are discussing.

The sex category of a human is based on a few indicators. Chromosomes are just one of those.

Human sex categories are defined through modern testing and a decision on whether a person is male or female can be determined by considering whether that person has a body that has been formed around the production of either large or small gametes, regardless of whether those gametes have ever, are being or will ever be produced.

This requires working ovaries or testes. No human has both working ovaries and testes. You seem to be attempting to leverage people's medical conditions to destabilise the established facts around human sex, without understanding how sex is determined.

@CautiousLurker01 thank you so much for sharing this, much strength to you and your daughter who is lucky to have you for a mum
I think your family's experience also points to the fact that the gender madness is very much a western, luxury belief. Women in Iran can't identify out of their oppression.

The only thing that makes a male brain male and vice versa is whether it has been shaped to fit into a male skull or a female skull. There are some structural differences in that configuration. Is that what you mean?

It is also documented that a female person has a brain that has more delicate brain fibres making them more susceptible to injury.

What has been studied is that hormones will interact with brain activity in different ways. So, if a male person takes estrogen, their male brain will have reactions to that hormone. It does not make those brains 'female'.

What has also been studied is that shared interests and occupations will also show similar reactions in the brain. Such as the study of London cabbies. So, of course, if a male person has interests that are more common in female people, then there may be some commonality in that activity in the brain.

However a male brain is a male brain. Because if a male person without a transgender identity takes estrogen and has some interests common with female people, their brain will be the same as a male person taking the same drugs and with the same interests. And be the same shape as a male and in a male body.

If you believe that a male person can have a 'female brain' or vice versa, if have any evidence at all to support your claim here, please link us up. It might be something new that we have not seen.

Quite the huge change yes - glad to see opinions can change so far. though 14% still amazes me. there again a good half of the world's IQ is less than 100 .

Go on then, get it out your system

👏👏👏

This is why the whole 'wrong body' or 'female brain in a male body' doesn't work.

And why no male person can 'identify' as a female person or vice versa. Nor can they 'live as a woman'.

No male can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic!

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.

Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is.

How can it be?

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome. And I consider the outcome can only be described as misogyny.

Which is that they will always be just a male who believes they are something they are objectively not.

How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.

The logic cannot be any different than that I am afraid.

Careful - that makes way too much sense.

What I have noticed over the last 2 - 3 years is that now there are only a stray post or two on threads that rely on the 'you are in the minority' if you say that you don't believe that a male person can ever be a 'girl' or a 'woman' and that they should not be accessing any female single sex provision.

Here is the latest YouGov figures if any of you are interested in reading them. For another thread I compared them to previous poll data for the exact same questions. The majority of people do not believe that male people can become female people regardless of how desperately that male person wants to believe they are.

And every two years more and more of the population of the UK understand exactly what it now means to allow any male to access female single sex provisions.

In the following questions a transgender woman is someone who was biologically male at birth, but now identifies as a woman. A transgender man is someone who was biologically female at birth, but now identifies as a man.

Do you think transgender women should or should not be allowed to…
Take part in women's sporting events?2018 in italics, 2022 in [brackets vs 2024

Should be allowed 27 [16] 11% 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 16%
Should not be allowed 48 [61] 74% 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 26%
Don't know 25 [22] 15%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 10%

Use women's changing rooms? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 42 [34] 27%. 2018 - 2024* this is decrease by 15%
Should not be allowed 33 [43] 56%. 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 23%
Don't know 25 [23] 17%. 2018 - 2024 *this is decrease by 8%

Use women's toilets? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 46 [38] 33%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 13%
Should not be allowed 30 [41] 51%. 2018 - 2024* *this is increase by 20%
Don't know 23 [21] 16%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 7%

Use women's refuges? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 47 [39] 31%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 16%
Should not be allowed 27 [36] 47%. 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 20%
Don't know 26 [25] 22%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 4%

No question making it clear that when a male person has or has not had surgery was asked in 2018, but here is how this too has changed since 2020:

Do you think a transgender woman who has not had gender reassignment surgery should or should not be allowed to...

Use women's changing rooms? 2020 in italics, 2022 in [brackets] vs 2024

Should be allowed 26 [25] 20%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 6%
Should not be allowed 46 [48] 62%. 2020 - 2024* *this is increase by 16%
Don't know 28 [27] 18%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 10%

Use women's toilets?
Should be allowed 31 [29] 26%. 2020 - 2024* *this is decrease by 5%
Should not be allowed 41 [46] 58%. 2020 - 2024 this is increase by 17%
Don't know 27 [25] 16%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 11%

Here is the data behind the 2018

d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Transgender_data_2018.pdf

2020

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Transgender_data_2020.pdf

2022

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Internal_TransgenderIssues_220720_final_extraXbreak_FINAL.pdf

2024

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/SexMatters_Gender_241219_ZMwbM2T.pdf

Here is the latest YouGov tracker information on whether people want gender neutral toilets or separate single sex toilets:

A new poll reveals that support for mixed-sex toilets is at its lowest level in five years.

Do you think public spaces should have separate toilets for men and women, gender neutral toilets, or both?
Separate toilets for men and women. 59%
Gender neutral toilets as well as separate toilets for men and women. 32%
Gender neutral toilets only. 5%
None of the above. 1%
Don't know. 3%

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society/trackers/support-for-separate-toilets-for-men-and-women-and-gender-neutral-toilets-in-public-spaces

And Sex Matters commentary on it.

https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/support-for-gender-neutral-toilets-falls/

It is a small minority of people actually believe that a male person can be a female person. It is a minority of people who believe that female people should not have access to female single sex spaces where all male people over about 8 years old are excluded. And it is minority of people who believe that any male people who have a body that has experienced any male puberty should be playing in female sports categories (this just reflects where the sporting bodies are headed with their policies and regulations at this time).

And it is also becoming clearer and clearer that a male who has had their testes removed is still a male and still should be excluded.

I don’t think you understood my point. And quantifiable doesn’t equal evidence. If you chat to any social scientist they can clarify this for you

Maybe you made your point badly. Try again.

As a young girl I was obsessed with wanting to be a boy. As a young woman I didn't want to have children. Thankfully, gender reconstruction wasn't a thing then so I was allowed to mature, to grow up and to change my mind when I was ready. Our children may be unable to do so.

Mm it’s hard to be honest. When you rely on claiming that the 14% is explained by people who have an IQ under 100 it feels like you aren’t open to reasoning.

you can always look into research methods if you’re interested. I’m not willing to try again. Nice tone.

Another poster has recognised and agreed with my point despite being gender critical themselves I think.

The language around gender identity is confusing and counterintuitive, so it can be hard to get your head around it. For example, gender affirming care may mean radical body modifications rather than what we would normally mean by affirmation: emotional support. Deadname really means birthname chosen by the family, something that holds keys to the person's past, something that you wouldn't want to bury if you want to understand yourself. Even basic terms like transman/transwoman are not very clear to the general public - some people are unsure whether it refers to a biological woman or a biological man because the concept unhelpfully conflates gender (as a feeling or belief) with biological sex.

Given how little is known and understood about gender, some people just default to their intuitive position of wanting to be considerate and nice to others, and assume that people who are in charge of writing policies and making decisions know what they are talking about, and have evidence to support it.

It doesn't cross most parents' minds to question what the school policy on social transitioning is, or whether calling a vulnerable traumatised child by an opposite sex name is appropriate. If it might put him or her a on a path of lifelong medicalisation with weak evidence base of any benefit whatsoever and irreversible consequences like infertility and other health complications - is it so kind after all? 'Time to Think' by Hannah Barnes covers a lot of ground on this subject, it's a must read for every parent today.

50% of people do have an IQ less than 100. That’s how it works.

It’s as if the language is used to bias people and confuse them.

I didn’t question that fact - what’s your point?

FML. Please move on.

I wish it was possible for you to discuss things like this rather than slanging at me.

But happy to leave you all to this general fire making - it’s depressing really