To think that parents should face the judge when their child commits a heinous crime?

[TY78910]

Hear me out!!

So many stories in the news of kids murdering other kids.

Southport, knife crime the list goes on.

In many of these cases kids have been expelled from school, behavioural issues for years.

Yes, the system needs to do more and services involved need to be held accountable.

But AIBU to think that if your child has been causing trouble and it leads them to committing awful offences you should stand trial for neglect?

You should be able to demonstrate that you've done everything in your power to get that child help before it led to what it led to?

If you have contacted the right authorities and tried to get that child help but it didn't work or there were obstacles then fine - you've done everything in your power. But if you saw your kid get expelled, get involved with gangs etc and did NOTHING, you should be standing trial for neglect and possibly endangering the public. Your child is ultimately your responsibility.

In some circumstances maybe. But with the Southport murders the parents were calling the police and trying to get help and nothing was done! I think those parents have enough to haunt them for the rest of their lives without having to be hauled through the courts themselves too.

Also - I do think most parents aren't doing nothing. It's just what they are doing is ineffective. Until services start operating the way they should I don't think anything can be done. 'Oh, you should have contacted social services, in order for us to visit and decide there was nothing wrong.'

Not sure why you would list Southport as an example given how much the parents were actively trying to work with authorities about their son and were dismissed.

I agree.

I think that a there are plenty of situations where parents are doing all they can about a troubled child, but are getting no help.

But I think there are plenty more where the parents havent done a thing about an obviously troubled kid. Or even encouraged bad behaviour

Figure it out in court.

It's not really feasible though is it?

Do you have any links on this?

The parents were trying to get help OP, why are you not addressing that fact? They were working with agencies. What more were they supposed to have done! Your thread is in bad taste.

I think that approach is all about reacting to the symptoms of societies problems at the individual level.
When in reality we would be much better placed to create a societal environment where the dark side human nature is less likely to express itself, that would make far more difference because no one parents their child positively for fear of possible consequences of what might happen if they don't.
People need hope, community, health and connection.
If the world they find themselves in affords many avenues for those things instead of many barriers then statistically nasty incidents will be far fewer and that's where public policy can have the greatest effect at the level of an entire population.

Splatting rats cures nothing because it's not addressing the root cause.

And edited to add, effective early intervention support when the wheels do start to come off.

But with a healthy society the demand or necessity for professional intervention would be lower.
We're too busy fire fighting with over stretched services.

'But I think there are plenty more where the parents havent done a thing about an obviously troubled kid. Or even encouraged bad behaviour'

Completely agree. Everyone likes to think that all parents do their very best for their children, but there are some parents who see their child as a problem for someone else to manage / fix, rather than a vulnerable kid for whom they have full responsibility. If course those parents have massive issues of their own, but endless hand wringing doesn't get us anywhere. I do understand the suggestion of considering the level of parental involvement and effort as part of the court proceedings in cases like this, I just don't know what the next step would / should be

I agree. And not just the single mothers. The feckless absent fathers too. Drag them to court to justify why they couldn’t take responsibility once they’d ejaculated their criminal sperm into the world.

Yes there are some cases where parents are responsible. However a lot this is a societal issue. Children carrying knives and stabbing each other is widespread, not confined to a few bad apples and poor parenting.

Also, it’s a nice idea but totally not possible. If there was clear evidence of neglect then a parent could be prosecuted. But otherwise how do you determine their level of culpability?

My DSS came to live with me at 6 having experienced much abuse and neglect - if he goes on to harm someone, am I being held accountable? Or would it be the parent who exposed him to abuse? What if they were vulnerable?

In an ideal world people who aren’t ready/fit to parent wouldn’t have children, but we can’t stop that, so society needs to fund services properly and educate children and parents properly and support them both.

No I don't think so.

It's way too complex.

Yes there a terrible parents out there who don't give a shit what their kids are up to, some will even encourage bad behaviour. But there will be parents who are doing all they can, they might be working long hours too to keep a roof over their heads. Getting very little help from services.

Then there will be parents who have learning difficulties or disabilities themselves and have been struggling to parent. Absent fathers too where a single mum might have been struggling to cope alone.

If you prosecute the ye parents, what about the other siblings in their care? One child might have gone off the rails but the siblings might be doing really well. Should they then have to go into care?

I know several parents who have literally begged for someone, anyone to help them. Are you going to haul the LA and all the other services over the coals too? Those specific parents probably feel a great deal of guilt already and you want them publicly blamed and hauled into court? There are absolutely parents who bare some blame, but many who try really hard to get help, when will they be judged to have tried hard enough? How many services have to knock them back? How many times should they have begged SS and MH services and their GP for help? When is enough?

The problem with this is how?

Lots of people produce children and then raise them very badly. They neglect or actively abuse them.

Btw these parents would think they are good people. Their standards may be completely different from yours.

I've met neglectful and abusive parents during my career and they all thought they were good people. They had zero insight into how they may have contributed to their child's dysfunctional and then criminal behaviour

No, for 2 reasons.

1- it's virtually impossible to get any kind of help for your kid when there's something going on, let alone preemptively.

2- in general it's going to be the mums up in court to blame for these things, there will be no mention of the dad.

Obviously in circumstances where the parents have covered up a crime etc that will be a charge in itself.

Btw I think the issue is often neglect rather than active abuse. If you want to look at poor parenting and criminalise, you would be look at people who don't feed their children, or clothe them. Or fail to get them to school. There are a whole list of red flags for a neglectful parent, and some are not taken as seriously as they should be.

I’ve worked with troubled kids and often, not always, there have been neglectful parents. Sounds a cliche but poor living conditions, no nurture, poor school attendance and a distrust of authority figures can make life very very challenging for the kids. However, education prior to problems is the way forward. Many of the neglectful parents were parented that way and think it’s normal. They don’t or can’t, fear of change, access learning or information on how to parent better. Punishing them won’t change anything and they will blame school, social care, gp and anyone they have had involvement with.
Parenting classes should be taught in school alongside sex education. Children should not be viewed as something everyone has, they should be wanted, hopefully planned for though not essential, nurtured and listened to.
The cycle can be broken but there needs to the political will .
Mental health services need more investment and youth services, which seem to get less funding every year, need money to work with kids from tweens upwards.
I’ve met many a parent who should never have had children but I had to temper my anger/frustration and look at their background.
I am also a hang them and flog them advocate when it comes to pardophiles and child murderers though. For some there is no hope.

I've been thinking about teenager muggers and if their parents know about what they do.

Possibly not. Same as parents don’t always realise their kids have been groomed into drug running until the kids are totally embroiled in it. They can’t just say they’re not going to do it anymore as the threat of a beating or worse is there always.
Some parents don’t actually care that much

You are talking about people who probably barely acknowledge their children live with them and regard them as a nuisance. Food, clothes, schooling, emotional needs, friends, security, kindness.

These kids live with parents who think because a takeaway is made available and they don't "make" their kids go to school that they doing a good job. And the chances are there will be low level of domestic abuse or addiction somewhere.

Children know when they aren't cared for. It's just that they can do nothing about it. By the time you've got serious criminal offences by the kids the chances of changing things are tiny.

What about the parents who are actively in denial? I know a mum whose son clearly has some issues - those looking on are assuming autism with a PDA profile because of behaviours. She will not hear it or see it, despite being terrified to sleep some nights because of his threats to her life (he's six). She believes if she can just flip some parenting switch he will behave, while others believe that she desperately needs help. Would she be prosecuted if he offends?

We need to be looking at getting the kids help as soon as low level problems start arising and as young as possible - but it's almost impossible to get help even when problems are escalating and becoming more and more serious.

Parents are often just trying to survive themselves, out of their depth, have mental health issues, were poorly parented themselves, living in poverty. Punishing those people is not going to help, it's just going to cost more money that we don't have and take up more court time we don't have - without changing anything.

More support is needed for parents and more support is needed for kids. We need much quicker diagnosis and better support for mental health issues, we need much quicker diagnosis and better support for anyone ND, we need better support for kids living in poverty, we need better support for those with addiction issues.

People are really struggling with modern life for a whole host of reasons, and no I don't believe it's because they're all snowflakes as some on here like to suggest. From the huge amounts of pressure/stress at school and work to the cost of living, add on top of that one of a myriad of possible mental health issues or neurodiversity or past or current abuse and really it's easy to see why so many people are falling apart and failing as parents or feel they can't get anywhere in life.

I have a sibling who showed behaviour difficulties from a very young age. As they went through school, our mum asked for help, the behaviour was far beyond typical boisterous child. Was doing insanely impulsive things with absolutely no sense of danger or right and wrong. These days ADHD would have been fully recognised (and in myself as well) but the more she raised it, the more they claimed it was bad parenting. Once in desperation she took me to the GP with her to explain just how bad it was (at this point there was hitting out and stealing on a daily bases), the doctor was absolutely furious, said she should call SS to report how ‘cruel’ it was to speak about sibling in this was, yet still no one took actual notice. I was black and blue at one point due to being the main target of their outbursts, when I showed a support worker they just shrugged at me, said should try and keep out of the way.

They ended up committing a serious crime as a teenager. All the warning signs were there, yet no one wanted to take responsibility. If the parents are to be held criminally responsible, so should any and every other adult who had safeguarding duty to the young person who committed the crime.