To think that parents should face the judge when their child commits a heinous crime?

[TY78910]

Hear me out!!

So many stories in the news of kids murdering other kids.

Southport, knife crime the list goes on.

In many of these cases kids have been expelled from school, behavioural issues for years.

Yes, the system needs to do more and services involved need to be held accountable.

But AIBU to think that if your child has been causing trouble and it leads them to committing awful offences you should stand trial for neglect?

You should be able to demonstrate that you've done everything in your power to get that child help before it led to what it led to?

If you have contacted the right authorities and tried to get that child help but it didn't work or there were obstacles then fine - you've done everything in your power. But if you saw your kid get expelled, get involved with gangs etc and did NOTHING, you should be standing trial for neglect and possibly endangering the public. Your child is ultimately your responsibility.

What will you do when those children committing the crimes are children of the state/government

the statistics are high for children in care

put the PM in court each time? Or their local MP? County councillor or district councillors

Five year olds who abuse and hold power over a parent have developed this behaviour due to problematic boundaries or maybe even no boundaries at all. Should we hold the parents accountable?

I think part of the problem is the different parenting styles/approaches that basically confuse parents and leave them completely confused about what they should be doing particularly with children who have complex needs, attachment disorders etc.

Many of the approaches for kids with attachment issues promote natural consequences and relationship building, which is good and useful, but leave parents thinking they are harming their children if they introduce clear boundaries with parent lead consequences. Low/no demand parenting approaches for kids with a PDA profile can be really helpful but again leave parents unclear about what to do about setting boundaries and managing behaviour. And then they end up with 5, 6, 7 year olds who are strong enough to really hurt or injure and quickly get beyond the point where the parent can set boundaries clearly without being attacked or hurt. There's minimal to no support for parents where there is child to parent violence.

I really think we've lost our way in terms of messages for parents, and in our understanding of what traumatised kids need, what kids with neurodiverse conditions needs, what kids with attachment difficulties need. We have too many parents really struggling with complex children and no clear idea of how to parent safely and effectively and no supports or services that will give consistent help.

As to the punishment, I'm not necessarily talking about throwing into prisons... there could be other kinds of punishment, ways to make parents accountable for their children and their behaviour.

I'd love to know what ideas you have about punishment. Decades as a child protection social worker tells me that if someone doesn't want to parent their child there's no way to force them.

I agree, but it also has to be holistic. If you are a low income, low education single parent, living precariously in a really dodgy area with gangs and knife crime, if your son gets sucked into it, I'm not sure you can really be chucked into prison for neglect. A some point the infrastructure that allows this lifestyle to persist (i.e. the government/police force/council) has to share responsbility, and of course the young person too. You can't penalise people for being poor and powerless. (Although you COULD let them choose what school they send their child too, by getting rid of catchment areas.)

But in the US parents are now being prosecuted for school shootings, as in some cases the parents have literally provided the guns, knowing their son was troubled/violent/batshit, so there IS a precedent for what you say.

I agree to a certain extent

Especially in the case of young children who commit very serious crimes

I do - two.
I also know that if either of them were getting expelled, having violent outbursts, started going to places and I didn't know where they were, late nights, not respecting boundaries (and I don't mean rebelliously not cleaning their room when I ask them to) - I would be speaking to GPs, schools to ask for support.

Whether that support is then given or not, that's not then me neglecting the issue (and my kids for that matter), I am actively seeking help.

That’s good - what if the kids refuse to engage in help? My daughter for example would sit in the car outside CAMHS and refuse point blank to go in - what then?

putting aside the fact that services that support families, children and, especially, teenagers have been cut to the bone or don’t exist anymore, how do you force engagement?

What we have to get over is that behavioural disorders are some sort of spontaneous thing a child has. It is intimately connected with parenting.

There are some social workers on this thread I think who would know just how well parents can lie about how they treat their children. Demographically they may only see poorer children but the lying, highly dysfunctional parent is a thing across society. It is just the emotional consequences are not much seen by the state. These people are adept liars and have the money to avoid scrutiny. The children are the losers.

Totally. But being poor or underprivileged does not exempt you from fundamentally being a good person.

Your kid may well be sucked in and unfortunately that is how things go but you can't ignore this and hope for the best either.

And I am literally speaking of raising a request for help - not actively achieving getting your child out of those situations as that is complex.

There have also been a few posts underneath that mentioned some parents might not do anything because they may be abusing the child themselves. More of a reason to investigate that!

so call up the GP and schools and that’s enough to absolve you of responsibility?

can you not see how dumb this is?

it isn’t the lack of phone calls that’s creating murderers

make phone calls - tick box- you stay out of court.

but your child’s still a murderer so… what’s the point?

I think, generally, people need to take more responsibly for their actions and the actions of their children.

It’s showing accountability. There will be cases that will be a lot more extreme than others. But surely you can see that doing something as opposed to nothing is better? That’s not dumb at all. I much rather 1 parent out of 10 succeed and prevents one serious crime, than none at all.

A disproportionate amount of children who commit crimes are in care. Their parents wouldn’t be around or they wouldn’t give a shit.

Its such a complex issue that there must be a solution but this ‘telling off’ business just isn’t it.

It’s in loads of newspaper articles.

I do however agree with this. And I think more parents need to be told that they’re doing a shit job. We are so scared of judging people but sometimes people need judging.

Just to back @Bristolinfeb up- it is. It’s clear that his parents tried for many years and prevented crimes too.

he was not parentable

links? its all out there, online, newspapers, articles, you can look yourself?

I’d take issue with the idea that children in care have parents who don’t give a shit. I work in the system- there are many parents who love their kids deeply but can’t manage their behaviour or keep them safe - often they have other children to protect and have suffered abuse at the hands of their child - but they absolutely give a shit.

I have worked with them too and too many don’t give enough of a shit. They’re given every opportunity to make changes, with plenty of time, and just don’t.

Plenty do care so I think it’s disingenuous to say parents of care experienced kids don’t give a shit

I am completely in agreement with you OP. Thoroughly.

A lot of parents care about their children and they still end up in prison, calling a gp for the child (who would probably refuse the appointment anyway) is going to do absolutely nothing. Stop being so judgemental and accept that some people just do bad things.

Yes, I always thought that the burger killers parents should have been in the dock too.
However, I can't see it happening tbh.
More prison places needed, wouldn't really change them etc.
Perhaps they should have other kids taken away but again that would be controversial and expensive.

Bulger

I think it depends. If they’ve given access to weapons to their children and then a crime is committed, 100%. However, a child could have the perfect parents and still turn out to be a killer/rapist/ horrific criminal, I think those who are truly evil are wired that way.