To think that parents should face the judge when their child commits a heinous crime?

[TY78910]

Hear me out!!

So many stories in the news of kids murdering other kids.

Southport, knife crime the list goes on.

In many of these cases kids have been expelled from school, behavioural issues for years.

Yes, the system needs to do more and services involved need to be held accountable.

But AIBU to think that if your child has been causing trouble and it leads them to committing awful offences you should stand trial for neglect?

You should be able to demonstrate that you've done everything in your power to get that child help before it led to what it led to?

If you have contacted the right authorities and tried to get that child help but it didn't work or there were obstacles then fine - you've done everything in your power. But if you saw your kid get expelled, get involved with gangs etc and did NOTHING, you should be standing trial for neglect and possibly endangering the public. Your child is ultimately your responsibility.

The James Bulger killers were not in the care system when they murdered him, but were soon after. But they did have social services involvement. I remember hearing the police interview tape where the mum of one of the boys was screaming at him even the police told her to calm down

In extreme circumstances, yes. For example where it’s clear the parents have done nothing or actively encouraged poor behaviour like that mum who’s son was out rioting last summer and she had to be dragged back from holiday to attend his court case

However, I know of people who’ve asked for help from everyone from school to social services and can’t get it. The Southport situation isn’t a good example because the parents knew something was wrong with their son and tried multiple times to get help. The dad even dragged the boy out a taxi one time to stop him doing something bad. The inquest will be a shitshow for multiple agencies.

I can see the argument, I've seen cases where parents are spoken to by the judge and even more where they are brought up by barristers, but also the older kids are, the less influence parents have and things get really complicated in cases where there is a group of defendants with one or two of them are kids.

I've seen the parents who've clearly viewed their child as golden & see no wrong. I've seen the parents who treat their kid in their twenties like they are 12, doing all the talking with the barristers and court staff while the 20something is gaming on their phone. I've also seen the parents who are absolutely desperate for any lifeline. I've seen the resigned parent who is having their greatest fears realised. I've seen the parent sitting as the appropriate adult next to their child while multiple grown ass adults in the dock are muttering at them & being the brave face to get their kid the best potential outcome for the kid (in some courts, the dock is at the far end from the judge and clerk, and a distance from ushers so this can go on for a while without it being caught & the parent(s) can be too scared to raise it themselves).

If people really wanted this, you would have to campaign for more court houses, for something to help the barrister shortage and the high turnover/difficulty recruiting court staff. Many courts are currently booking trials for Summer 2027. Much like many other public services that got stripped back, the courts are breaking, held together with a string. String and agency workers. There is not room in the courts to be adding on cases against parents for every minor defendant.

ODFOD.

Criminals are not the sole domain of single mothers. Take your bigotry and maybe educate yourself a bit?;

I disagree. Some people are just fucked up and it is no one else's fault except that individual person.
I've got to say I was a wild child and did a lot of crazy things nothing evil but one of the things I did I've often seen argued that it's "the parents fault" and the parents should be punished if their child does it. There's genuinely nothing my parents could have done to stop me though.

Another thing to consider is some kids get involved with the wrong crowd or join gangs because of the neighborhood they live in and it would never have happened if they lived on the Shetland islands. Obviously not every family can move to the Shetland islands before someone recommends it .

I do think axel rudukabana should receive the death penalty

I also disagree with the black and white thinking of
Parent puts loads of effort into raising child well = perfect functional adult

And

Parent neglects and abuses kid = criminal adult

Yes I know someone will pull out some statistics on me but I know way too many lovely sweet people raised by neglectful parents heroin addicts even and I know complete assholes and sociopaths raised by normal parents.

And what happens when those parents have been trying to get help for their child but the system has failed them?

My son waited on a CAHMS waiting list so long that he became too old to be seen by CAHMS and was discharged and then start again at the bottom of the adult waiting list.

We need to be looking at far wider than parents. As a parent of a severely mentally disabled adult I can tell you first hand that adult social services are not fit for purpose. If my son did not have parents managing almost his entire life he would be dead by now, but adult social services do almost nothing to help.

This is a ridiculous idea honestly. Lots of parents do all they can. You’re basically saying if someone murders someone then the parent/s should be on trial for murder by association.

As to the punishment, I'm not necessarily talking about throwing into prisons... there could be other kinds of punishment, ways to make parents accountable for their children and their behaviour.

Punishment doesn't have a hope of detering a crime unless people fear the consequences. At it's most basic its the possible cost, which is made up of the chance of geting convicted and the severity of the punishment. If both are low then its not going to deter crime. In this case it's not just the chance your child will be violent, it's the chance your child will commit a violent crime in public, which many children who are violent won't, so it's a fairly slim chance of getting caught. So unless the punishment is severe it won't reduce the occurrence of neglect and abuse. There is still validity in punishment as punishment for the guilty, but it won't effect the occurrence rate of violent crime by children.

The parents who do all the right things will already feel horrendous guilt over their child committing a violent crime, the neglectful parents won't GAF and will be sure they're not the problem. For the parents who actually care and have done their best the investigation you're suggesting would be highly traumatic at a time when they're already suffering horribly.

While we're blue sky thinking interventions when children are young, parenting courses for those at risk, properly funded mental health and diagnostic services, properly funded EHCP that parents don't have to fight tooth and nail to get, access to therapists like OT and speech, identification of at risk children and extra supports for their parents, trauma counselling for children who have been or are in situations where there's DV or violent siblings, properly resourced SS, these things could actually reduce the problem and in a much more humane way. If you're going to imagine a better world, why not one that is actually better. Prevention is far better then punishment.

How about governments be held accountable for a lack of services. Parents often beg for help for years until it's too late. So, no. Yabu.

Lets say we implement your system; what will change? Why don't we just have parenting classes for people who need them now, and support for parents who need it now?

@EliflurtleAndTheInfiniteMadness
Yeah, I do completely agree with prevention being the best course of action. I guess in an ideal society all the services would work as they should and we could support those kids before they feel they need to take such drastic measures.

It's not the Governments responsibility to tell parents how to raise their kids though. Since Covid, people seem to rely on the Government for everything.

@TY78910 I have two genuine questions.

1. What do you think this would actually solve or improve these situations?

1. How far back do we go? Jimmy is 14 and commits a violent crime. Jimmy's mum suffered of neglect and abuse. She's responsible for Jimmy, are her parents responsible for her? After all, if they were better parents, she might be a better parent and Jimmy might be a chess champion instead.

One of the boys had social services involvement because he came from an abusive home. That was Robert Thompson I think.

Yes, believed at the time to be the worse of the two and the instigator but it’s actually Jon Venables who’s gone on to lead a life of crime in adulthood whereas apparently Thompson is law abiding

Which just goes to show that although childhood trauma is important factor it doesn't take away personal choice and the ability to recover.

It's why I think the Southport killer can't be rehabilitated. He had a loving home and every advantage but he still did what he did. I could be wrong though . I hope I'm wrong.

Absolutely! Obviously what happened to poor James Bulger is horrific beyond belief but I only ever hoped his killers could lead a good life as adults.

I asked ss for help. Was told because dc had another person with PR (bastard exh) they couldn't offer me any support
..

For those parents who cared but things went wrong anyway, the choices of their child and the consequences to them and others is already torture enough.
For those parents who don't give a monkeys the prospect of being taken to court for it won't make a scrap of difference.
Jail isn't a deterrent when people are acting out their lives, making their choices, obeying their impulses.
This kind of thinking is flawed because it's working backwards from the problem.

Some of you may be interested in this Reith lectures series, 4 episodes on the topic of violent offenders.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0025l4d?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile