Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To think people with terminal illnesses should be allowed to choose assisted death?

108 replies

ByPoisedOliveMoose · 27/01/2025 18:07

If someone is suffering with no hope of recovery, shouldn’t they have the right to end their life on their own terms? AIBU to think assisted dying should be a legal option for those with terminal illnesses?

OP posts:
MrsSchrute · 29/01/2025 16:04

Interesting comment from Prof Allan House, emeritus professor of psychology at the committee hearing today:

'If Leadbeater's Bill passes, we would need to change our national suicide prevention strategy … at the moment it includes identifying suicidal thoughts in people with severe physical illnesses as something that merits intervention, and the intervention is not an intervention to help people proceed to suicide.'

MrsSchrute · 29/01/2025 16:12

And this article from The Times is fascinating!

POLITICAL SKETCH
The assisted dying debate should not be happening like this
For the first time, a bill introduced by a backbench MP requires evidence from expert witnesses at committee stage. The technicalities might be tedious but this is a mess

Kim Leadbeater’s private member’s bill on assisted dying is already not like any other private member’s bill there’s ever been

The not-uncontroversial Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill has reached what’s known as “committee stage”, which means that a small group of specially selected MPs meet to carefully scrutinise the legislation line by line but woah woah woah hang on a minute, isn’t that Professor Sir Chris Whitty? What’s he doing here?

You remember him, right, the Covid guy? Hands, face, space, bald head, occasional death stares at Matt Hancock? Yep, that’s the one. But he’s not an MP is he, never has been, never will be, so what exactly was he doing, up in the Grimond Room in Portcullis House, trying his hand at scrutinising legislation?

Admittedly, some people care more about this sort of thing than others, but the scrutiny of legislation at committee stage has been, until now, an MP’s job, and that’s how it should be. The backbench Labour MP Kim Leadbeater’s private member’s bill on assisted dying is already not like any other private member’s bill there’s ever been. For the first time, a bill introduced by a backbench MP has required evidence from expert witnesses to be given at committee stage. Whitty was the first such witness, across three full days.

The technicalities might be tedious but — whatever one’s view on assisted dying — this is a mess. The reason it’s never happened before is because legislation this potentially enormous has always been introduced by governments not backbenchers. That a change in the way we live of this significance may be passed into law without the government of the day expressing a view is abnormal in the extreme. A more experienced government, frankly, would have contrived a way for this not to be happening, but it is, and it’s wildly controversial.

Leadbeater has been accused, and not unfairly, of “stacking the decks” on assisted dying, chiefly by calling a range of witnesses who are, by and large, in favour of its introduction. There are doctors and public health officials in, for example, Canada, who now advocate against assisted dying because of the unintended consequences of its introduction there. None have been called.

But if the idea was that this was to be three long days of polite agreement then it didn’t quite happen. The first thing the legislation would have to do is come to an agreed definition on who was and wasn’t “terminally ill”. That’s the easy bit and it’s not easy.

“If you’re diagnosed with breast cancer most people live at least another ten years,” Whitty said. Other people may have only months to live but that is because they are simultaneously afflicted with what he called a “constellation” of illnesses, none of which are strictly terminal, some of which may even go away again. Working out who qualifies for assisted dying and who doesn’t is the bill’s first unresolved mess.

The other is who is going to do the assisting. Medical professionals are members of society too, Whitty explained, arguably unnecessarily. They are entitled to strong views of their own. They also tend to go into the profession to save lives. They may not wish to do a shift on the assisted dying wing, which is not like any other medical service, and that is their right.

We heard from Dr Andrew Green, the chair of the British Medical Association’s ethics committee, who put it rather bluntly. “I do not believe it is ever appropriate for a doctor to recommend that a patient go through an assisted dying process,” he said.

Leadbeater is, of course, a member of the committee herself. When things weren’t going her way, she naturally had a good line in passive-aggressive disagreement. “We should be able to embrace a holistic approach that happens in other countries,” she told Whitty at one point. He did not appear altogether sure what this meant.

At the end of the day came Dr Rachel Clarke, who has become something of a celebrity doctor in recent years after writing about working on Covid wards during the pandemic. She is, first and foremost, a palliative care doctor and what she had to say was rather damning.

“The patients who will beg me to end their life”, she said, “it is not from the cancer, it is because they have not received proper palliative care.”

People will choose to die quickly, in other words, to be spared the misery of dying slowly with the NHS. She went on: “It doesn’t have anything to do with assisted dying, but if we do not address that simultaneously, then people will choose to end their life because we as a society don’t care about them enough to give them the care that might make life worth living.”

This is a debate of unimaginable complexity, wrought with intense strength of feeling. It’s not a subject on which a government can possibly be neutral. It shouldn’t be happening in this way.

PipMumsnet · 29/01/2025 16:14

Hello, this is just a heads up to let you know that this thread was started by a previously poster - who we have banned again, but we are letting it run as it is an interesting one.
MNHQ

fiftiesmum · 29/01/2025 16:52

My main hope in bringing this bill is that there will also be a major review of palliative care and that it is available to all and not just those who live in the right parts of the country

ToWhitToWhoo · 30/01/2025 18:39

NutellaEllaElla · 27/01/2025 18:12

You know how we don't allow capital punishment because of the risk of one innocent person being killed? Same with this, the risk of people being pressured into it, being afraid of being a burden, is too high for me. Furthermore, it's too 'easy' for medical professionals/the government to resort to rather than provide decent palliative care.

But pressure can go both ways. Sometimes people can be pressed into continuing to live in what for them are intolerable conditions, by relatives who don't want the pain of losing them, or by relatives or medical professionals who think that one must obey the Will of God when it comes to one's life and death.

A friend once told me that if I tried to kill myself because of an intolerable (to me) medical prognosis, she would come along and forcibly prevent me from doing so. This frightened me beyond belief (though obviously, if I'm ever in that position, I will make sure that she doesn't know in advance).

I realize that, especially in these days of shortages of medical resources, it's necessary to guard against people being pressured to die to relieve a financial burden on the NHS or on their families. But it's also necessary to guard against pressures in the opposite direction.

My greatest fear is of locked-in syndrome or advanced motor neurone disease, so I realize that these may not be covered by the assisted dying bill, and I continue to be afraid).

Derrygirl09 · 31/01/2025 00:35

ByPoisedOliveMoose · 27/01/2025 18:07

If someone is suffering with no hope of recovery, shouldn’t they have the right to end their life on their own terms? AIBU to think assisted dying should be a legal option for those with terminal illnesses?

I'm a huge believer of this , after watching someone I loved so dearly die In horrific pain that went on from months the last weeks were absolutely awful and having to live with the self disgust that one of your first feelings of hearing it was finally over for them was thank god is something I'll never get over , of course I was devastated, but there was a feeling of relief they weren't suffering anymore , even say that makes me feel ill but it's the truth , I loved them too much to just feel devestated they had passed , I couldn't in my full heart want them to still be here, like that , even writing this has reduced me to tears, of course most of me would have done anything to keep them here but for what ? Woudlnt that be the most cruel and selfish thing of all , I find it disgusting tbh that a pet can be 'put to sleep ' as it's cruel to keep them alive but a human being has to suffer horrifically, or end up so high on all sorts of drugs that their last days they aren't even there , like they know it's that bad they give them all sorts let's be honest so why not the decency to not have to go through that in first place , as if it isn't horrific enough to be told your going to die but to have to live with the fear of what the ending might be because this isn't a option is really cruel , sorry this topic actually makes me a bit mad , having witnessed a death of a loved one who truly truly deserved to live the most beautiful happy life because she was truly beautiful, my opinion on it is such a strong one , I truly believe it should be legal

NutellaEllaElla · 01/02/2025 08:37

Best ignore the inconvenient ethical problems then.

EmmaMaria · 01/02/2025 11:30

NutellaEllaElla · 01/02/2025 08:37

Best ignore the inconvenient ethical problems then.

What about the inconvenient ethical problems of keeping people alive against their will, or of prosecuting loved ones who help them to end their lives with dignity? The problem with ethics is that they have no conclusive answers. They are opinions and nothing more.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread