Life as a lawyer

[nestaarchy]

Would love some advice from other female lawyers.

I am a 4PQE lawyer, working at a city firm in disputes. I am really struggling. The partners are constantly making me feel stressed and anxious. I try really, really hard on all the work I do and they are constantly critical. We will discuss what to do, I will send a draft/plan and it will be agreed and then when I draft the letter/email/court document they say, why have you done that? Because it is literally what we have agreed! Then they say, well I've changed my mind. Am I a mind reader?

Sorry for the rambling but I'm feeling so down. I feel like I'm rubbish at my job and I cry so much because it's so stressful. I speak to friends around my age/level and they say they have similar things with partners essentially rewriting work/heavily marking it up and it's not a reflection on me. I just feel like I'm criticised all the time and I find it so demoralising and my self confidence has been absolutely shattered.

Just looking for advice from anyone who's been through something similar. Thanks

I'm not a lawyer but was in a similarly high stress City job. It's no exaggeration to say I used to cry on a weekly basis (at least) in the early part of my career. Horrendous hours, unrealistic deadlines and working for ungrateful bellends. It was horrible.

But it does get better, and you will start to feel like you're good at your job. Hang in there.

Agree 100% with this.

I had Baby No 1 at a City Firm in a toxic culture. From being asked to start my mat leave a month later than my due date because the partner had approved a favourites holiday to being told it wasn't fair for others to "pick up the slack" when I was 8 months pregnant, had HG and was throwing up in a bin.
There were partners who called all junior female lawyers "Charlotte" and when someone said "that's not my name" said "I don't care"

Get out now. Move firms.

I went back pregnant after Mat Leave No 1, left at 28 weeks (so was back for 3 months max) with Mat Leave No 2.

I spent every day of my pregnancy being sick with anxiety. I have friends who struggled to conceive, left work and then got pregnant instantly. Stress and anxiety do horrible things to your body.

@Ifyouknowyouknowyouknow the anxiety and stress definitely comes from my work mark ups. The partners are actually very nice to me tbh. They speak highly of me to clients and I have quite a big BD budget and always get great feedback on my client management. It's just the work side that makes me really doubt myself

How did you find moving after first mat leave? That's what I'm hoping to do if things go (loosely) to plan

Another vote for look to move in-house now if you can. You won’t want to be pregnant working in a super stressy environment if you can avoid it. In house is mostly much more collaborative and less critical/competitive.

Hi @nestaarchy I’m a General Counsel, in-house obviously, unusually I’ve never actually
worked in a firm as went in-house as soon as a graduated but I have instructed many a large firm partner, have hired from top tier litigation teams and was married to a private practice lawyer so I feel well qualified to comment 😂

I don’t think your partner’s behaviour is any reflection on the quality of work. Remember firms are first and foremost businesses with billing targets (as you well know). The incessant and inconsistent mark ups 😬 ndycate to me (a) bill padding by your partners - if they mark up your (perfectly good) work, they get to add more time to the file and (b) insecurity on their part. Really a busy litigation partner should not have the time or the inclination to micromanage to this degree. They should have sufficient work and good juniors in their team that they can effectively delegate. They are not doing so which suggests either not enough work in the pipeline or a lack of maturity as a partner. Their focus should be on BD and strategy with a broad overview of work output quality, not pettifogging mark ups.

I have ended relationships with partners on more than one occasion who could not seem to understand that as GC with 20+ experience I am not looking for track changes on my requests for advice but for strategic advice on (for e.g) how the regulator approaches XYZ issue, X judge’s track record on this issue vs Y judge, the risk if we take X path vs Y path. All partners at law firms claim to be commercially savvy and strategic advisors but I have actually found that very few are. Most have got to where there are by billing the shit out of their clients, often by doing the kind of superfluous shit they are doing right now (fiddling with your work unnecessarily) and they can’t seem to pivot once they make partner. And they typically get no coaching on managing a team so are terrible people leaders.

Start applying for in house jobs now!

In house can be stressful
and the work doesn’t stop and obviously the $$$ is not as good, but at what price sanity. I’m a single parent with two primary school aged children and I could not manage my career if I was in private practice

I’m an ex-partner in an international firm, now GC - working 9-5 in a female-led global business with a great culture and the pay is the same (mainly because I am virtually guaranteed a decent bonus now). I planned to take mat leave after making partner, but I couldn’t face going back in PP. (Lucky really as DS is disabled). I just quit, and I’ve never looked back. Element of jamminess though in terms of the in-house opportunity popping up at the right time.

I went in house 8 years ago and have never looked back. Perfect balance of law and home life (kiddies are only little for so long.... they have a happy non stressed mummy!). I just couldn't be doing with the egos, games and presentism at city law firm!
x

Have you asked for feedback from these partners, outside the annual review process? Either they are just dicks (often the case), or there is some mismatch between what you think you're being asked to do and what they actually expect. Lawyers - weirdly - are often not great communicators particularly when it comes to line management.

I'm a litigation partner and I'd be mortified if anyone reporting to me felt as demoralised as you do.

Try a job in Tesco - less stress🤗

You’ve had some really good advice @nestaarchy so I won’t repeat it. The only thing I will add is that instead of counselling generally might be worth getting some really focused careers counselling/guidance. There are people who do that for senior professionals and help you really dig in to your values, stressors and preferences and refine your plans. I found it very helpful, though actually didn’t change me job or career as a result, just was able to start thinking differently about some things which mitigated the really painful stuff and allowed me to focus more on what I cared about.

Not all firms are like that. Find a firm with a better culture I promise we are out there!

To be fair I often revisit my own work before sending and change that !

Youve had some good advice on this thread. Do take into account there is no knowing how long TCC will take. Took us a year and my sister 2 years no issues we got there in the end but this timescale could happen.

Ideally hang on in there and use the techniques mentioned above to change your mindset so you minimise upset but if you’re really unhappy it may be some time before a mat leave.

OK so (in the nicest possible way), this isn’t a firm problem, it’s a you problem.

And I stress it’s not a problem as such - it is totally reasonable not to enjoy the process and to want a different working environment. Issue for you is how you can reframe things to cope with it while you’re waiting to switch (since you say you don’t want to move until post mat-leave). I do think counselling could help to just mentally reframe how you perceive the process.

With drafting, as has been said, the changes likely reflect a hotch potch of: your instructions weren’t particularly clear/they were clear but strategy has now changed/personal style preferences of the reviewer/you have missed some nuances which is completely to be expected given your seniority. I think just let it wash over where you can and see what you can learn from it. The more you can at least emulate their style the fewer stylistic changes will be made at least.

No, don’t do this! Your supervisors’ inboxes will be overflowing with emails from clients and the other side already. The last thing they need is emails from you repeating every word of the last discussion you had. By all means keep your own file notes and, of course, clarify anything that you are not clear about to the extent that it will stop you getting started on the task, but you’ll just be seen as someone trying to cover your arse if you endlessly document the instructions.

There has been some fantastic advice on here. I would strongly recommend that you find yourself a real-life mentor to talk to. Does your firm have a scheme?

Do you have any PSLs in your firm? They can be good sounding boards.

I could have written this post OP, I’m in exactly the same position at 4PQE.

I was hanging on for mat pay for the past year, but TTC has taken longer than we’d anticipated.

I’m now actively applying for in-house roles. The pay is as good (if not better) than my current private practice role. I don’t expect excellent mat pay, but we can make do without that. I’ve got to the point where I’ve decided I need to prioritise my wellbeing over potential mat pay.

The Partners I work with are either belittling (blasting my work without giving me the opportunity to explain my approach / thinking, and they often are not across the matter as they are obviously very busy and so miss nuance to cases); or are micro managers who don’t trust me to write a basic two line email without it being reviewed. It is taking its toll on my wellbeing, and I wouldn’t be surprised if this long-term low-level stress is impacting my fertility (I have had irregular periods for the last year).

If you can manage without enhanced mat pay, I’d take a new job and delay TTC for a few months.

Also, as you become more senior, you should also be trying to add value where possible. I have a 3.5 pqe associate now who is very good at executing what I have told her to do but makes no attempt to add her own points/apply her own mind to what I tell her/pre-empt anything. If I forget something there is no way she will catch it.

Of course you may be doing this already but you might be able to anticipate some of the changes that come as a result of the senior person reflecting if you do the reflecting for them before you hand it in. You can always just do this in square brackets and even if they disagree you look proactive.

OP, I don’t know that you have had universally great advice here. While it is possible you may need counselling, it is also possible that you are absolutely fine and just being gaslit by cunts.

Lots of lawyers are operating under unreasonable pressure - possibly you included - and it turns them into unreasonable people, forced to live in the moment and not able to remember what they previously instructed or where a matter has got to.

I doubt this is a you thing. It sounds a firm thing or a team thing. And there are other better firms/teams you could move to.

It really depends @LegalBarbie. OP says the team are nice to her in person, supportive of her, speak well of her to clients, give her a BD budget, none of which they would do if they were c*nts or didn’t rate her.

A 4pqe will get their work marked up wherever they go. And rightly so as you should still be learning at that stage, especially in litigation.

Longer too, potentially. It's not unknown to see a junior barrister of 15 years' call or more draft a skeleton, and then it is gone over by the silk and corrected / added to. That's what each is for, really!

I think both can be true at the same time. Unfortunately the world is full of cunts, which can be particularly true at city firms. It shouldn't have to be this way but the reality is that you need to navigate your way through them. So it's helpful to have a thick skin to do so in order to be able to filter the good feedback from the bad.

Agree @scrabblie both can be true .

I don’t think it’s standard for a 4PQE to have their work routinely picked over and marked up. It’s a private practice/litigation thing.

I do mark up my team’s work (not every time, but it happens) but when I do, it’s not usually because what they have written is wrong, it’s because I have a certain style/strategy in mind, I try not to mark up for stylistic reasons only, and I always explain why I’ve made the changes.

The last litigation partner I had to set free marked up my emails/memos and tried to change the strategy mid flow, directly contrary to my instructions. Some lawyers are just myopic control freak dickheads.

I don’t think it’s standard for a 4PQE to have their work routinely picked over and marked up. It’s a private practice/litigation thing

Yes, it is indeed. And the OP is in litigation in private practice so in other words it’s just par for the course. Not a sign that she’s at a bad firm/in a bad team/doing a bad job.

Excuse me @Ifyouknowyouknowyouknow I am a GC, the two most junior members of my team are ex top tier litigators - one more junior than 4PQE. They do not need their work routinely reviewed (certainly the more senior one doesn’t). A 4PQE is the sweet spot of the law firm profit structure- junior enough to still be relatively cheap salary wise but senior enough to take on complex work largely unsupervised and bill bill bill.

A partner who is routinely marking up a competent 4PQE is insecure in their role, can’t effectively delegate and/or hadn’t effectively coached or communicated with that lawyer.