Life as a lawyer

[nestaarchy]

Would love some advice from other female lawyers.

I am a 4PQE lawyer, working at a city firm in disputes. I am really struggling. The partners are constantly making me feel stressed and anxious. I try really, really hard on all the work I do and they are constantly critical. We will discuss what to do, I will send a draft/plan and it will be agreed and then when I draft the letter/email/court document they say, why have you done that? Because it is literally what we have agreed! Then they say, well I've changed my mind. Am I a mind reader?

Sorry for the rambling but I'm feeling so down. I feel like I'm rubbish at my job and I cry so much because it's so stressful. I speak to friends around my age/level and they say they have similar things with partners essentially rewriting work/heavily marking it up and it's not a reflection on me. I just feel like I'm criticised all the time and I find it so demoralising and my self confidence has been absolutely shattered.

Just looking for advice from anyone who's been through something similar. Thanks

Yes, we really struggle to recruit litigators in house, you would be snapped up @nestaarchy (and @minipie )

It can be like this. It deIfinitely depends on team, culture and how proficient you are in your area. I have a vague recollection of 4 yr pqe being quite bad (was at magic circle). Later it got better and I loved the partners I worked for but I was independently confident by then.
Stick in, have your baby and then go in house or come back to private practice as its amazing how having kids increases your maturity/no-nonsense vibe (you just don't have time or head space to rewrite anything 6 times and you act accordingly).
It's a great long-term career. Either you make partner and you are in charge and make millions or you go into one of many niche sidelines. My current job is 4 days a week, with lovely clients from home and I earn well over 6 figures . My kids have a great standard of living money-wise and I see them all the time. It's just stressful when you are in the trenches and everyone senior to you has forgotten what it's like to be you.

This might be a complete no for you but I'd consider what type of firm you want to work in.

I trained and qualified in a (mostly) friendly high street firm. Then went to a large regional and the culture was soul destroying. No one was actively unfriendly but no one was particularly friendly either and a couple of the partners were so incredibly critical it was horrid. The commute was long and there was a lot of inter office travel required which made the commute even longer. I was permanently exhausted and debated quitting law altogether.

I moved back to a high street firm recently. I did take a slight pay cut but actually I'm working from home more and used to do a long commute with expensive parking so it balances for me. If I'd stayed longer the gulf in pay would have felt massive but I was happier from day 1.

Culture is so huge and life is too short to spend time at work second guessing yourself and crying a lot. Think how hard you worked and how long it took to qualify. This isn't the professional life you worked so hard for and there are better options out there.

Bigger firms tend to pay better maternity benefits but a lot require you to go back to work for a certain amount of time afterwards otherwise you have to pay it back so it may not be as appealing to stick it out on that basis alone.

@mucky123 love to know what some of the many niche sidelines are! I feel like there aren’t many sideways moves from being a litigator?

Don’t feel trapped into your area of law. I remember a recruitment agent earnestly telling us as newly qualified that you picked your area of law and stayed in it for your whole career. Wrong pal! I’ve worked in several really diverse areas.

@TheaBrandt how please? Not in a traditional law firm with its set department boundaries, I presume?

Having worked at a couple of different firms with very different partner styles I agree that the partners you work for make a massive difference. I've worked for partners at both end of the spectrum - some completely lovely and others with borderline personality disorders (including stuff you describe).

It's tough because when it's the latter you're mentally exhausted which makes it so much harder to stay resilient and so much easier to crumble and become stressed/emotional. It's a vicious cycle.

It almost sounds like you might care too much? Ie when you get feedback you beat yourself up too much? Definitely not saying it is ok to treat people like shit but if you are dealing with that it can be better to just take a step back to gain perspective.

I've found it easier as I get more experience and build inner resilience - makes it much more easier to just inwardly think fuck you you twat when people are out of order and let it slide off your back. I appreciate good feedback but sometimes it can be so unconstructive! I've also seen really high achieving people being broken. It sucks.

I really do think it could completely change at a different firm but you also need to be sure you're not jumping out of the fry pan and into the fire.

On the flip side, when I've worked for lovely partners, my mental health has been a LOT better (although the training and experience was not so great).

You sort of need to find the perfect balance where you are doing the work you want and not working for utter psychos! Maybe the goldilocks firm doesn't exist but there are definitely firms with better and worse cultures.

I would however 100percent recommend trying to get into a more long term job where you are happier and where you want to return to before you get pregnant (if you are lucky enough to be in that position).

I didn't and whilst I don't regret where I was, life got in the way and I ended up staying in the same job for years longer thank I intended.

FWIW I think things are going in the right direction. I'm not perfect but having seen the worst I make an effort to NOT be that type of supervisor. I'm optimistic that as more and more level headed women come through there'll be more and more better role models.

Life just took me in different directions. Started off doing all sorts (family /criminal) in a high street firm then ended up doing international finance in a a Magic Circle firm.

I’m a 10pqe litigator (counsel) in a US firm in London.

First thing I’d say is, try to work out whether the partners/your seniors are making you feel anxious in the way that they treat/interact with you, or whether your anxiety comes from the amendments they make to your work?

If the former and you work with dicks, don’t hang on for the mat leave - just move firms asap. Much easier to move when you’re in the sweet spot of 3-5 pqe with no kids - will be harder at 6-7 pqe when still navigating the return to work transitions and with a year’s less experience than it appears.

If it’s the latter and you’re just finding the process of constant refinement hard, like pps have said, it’s not personal and it’s just the nature of litigation. I regularly have to redraft entire letters/witness statements/emails of advice - not because the associate hasn’t done a good job, but because points of strategy, tone and emphasis change and are refined with time. The most common issue I have with associate drafting outside of those points is being too aggressive in correspondence - there is a particular tone/style that comes with time and experience. That said, counsel regularly mark up my work. It honestly wouldn’t enter my head to be annoyed by it unless I actually disagreed with the changes, which is rare.

Litigation can be very stressful and it does attract more than its fair share of anal pedants with limited people skills. I’ve been where you are and felt overworked and overwhelmed but I’m out the other side with 2 kids, a rewarding job where I have much more control of what I do and when I do it, and a massive pay packet. I do think I am temperamentally suited to it though as I generally thrive on stress and enjoy it all.

Either way you are right to hang in there (at current firm or similar elsewhere) and get your mat leave(s) before making drastic changes. Good luck!

I’ve worked for 5 law firms (not a litigator). The first 3 were as I’d expect, yes my work would be marked up slightly but nothing excessive.

The fourth was a whole new ball game, real control freak of a partner who made me doubt myself even with 15+ years experience. Needless to say, that team had a very high turnover of lawyers (me included!).

I work for the fifth firm as a contractor, paid by the hour. The partners are quite difficult to work with, and the team has a high turnover as a result. Great for me as they need a steady pair of hands. I don’t mind cos I’m earning good money but they don’t “own” me (if I don’t check emails at weekends they can’t complain).

My advice would be find a different firm, it doesn’t have to be shit!

"That said, counsel regularly mark up my work. It honestly wouldn’t enter my head to be annoyed by it unless I actually disagreed with the changes, which is rare." I was recently on an email thread @Ifyouknowyouknowyouknow where counsel and solicitor were nearly swords at dawn over "none is...." or "none are..."....

I would try and see it as a positive soak up their knowledge to use for your own purposes later on. It is demoralising though. But you are going to need a thicker skin for law and generally actually - both colleagues and clients can be tough. I know so many brilliant professional women in all sorts of sectors and think everyone has had difficult colleagues at some point. Most moved jobs if it got really bad.

lol @LondonLawyer! I mean, I can absolutely believe this happened, but also assume it was the sol’s letter so they could presumably have just sent it out as they preferred without getting into an argument?!

I think the key is, as someone said upthread, to try to think of the whole exercise as a collaboration, rather than a teacher marking your homework and feeling disappointed that you haven’t got an A* (which is probs what you’re used to getting!).

As others have said 4pqe can be painful, you're not junior and you're not yet in your stride.

Same as others you need to work out if it's certain individual, the firm or the work/law in general and go from there.

I moved at the point of my first mat leave, was 5-6 pqe. I was at the point of needing more control over my work and not be locked into the world and life as an mid level associate. It was the best decision and has worked out very well for me, I'm well out the other side now as partner and try to be fair to the few earners that work with me - I would be pissed if they got touchy about markup as that's par for the course but I like to think I'm nice in the way I deliver it, I don't tell them they are crap etc and try to build them up.

A law career is a long time and you are only at the point of coming out of the start really

I think it was a skeleton, so probably couldn't be filed and served without counsel approving it first. But I take your point!

I think you are entirely right in the second part - @nestaarchy it is does take some getting used to, it can feel a bit like an exam question being changed after you've answered it.

Thanks everyone, all the comments have made me feel so much better. I have a week off now so going to really try and take time to reflect and be more resilient. I'll go through and answer specific questions

I had counselling all last year and stopped in December but I've booked back in now with a new counsellor who focuses on these kinds of issues. I definitely need to stop letting it get me down so much

I am definitely going to try this. I take a lot of handwritten notes but I think I should do more emails to record how discussions are progressing

Make a game plan for your career and just focus on that. It really helps you ignore the aresholes when you are working towards your own objectives. For you it should be getting as much experience under your belt and raising your profile before you go on mat leave to put you in the best possible position to get a job elsewhere after mat leave!

I think I'd quite like to move in house in a law firm, so risk and compliance type work. I find that super interesting

This comment really resonated with me, thank you.

I think I am interpreting instructions correctly - I will always pop over to their desk, email or have a teams call to confirm before I start the work. After reading this thread, I genuinely think it might be that it's collaborative and is going to be changed anyway, nothing to do with my ability

I've spoken to DH and if it doesn't happen by summer, then I'm going to look for new jobs. That will have only been 6 months TTC but I don't want it to dictate my life when I'm not loving my firm. (I've had fertility testing done too and everything looks good so hopeful that if I had to move all would be ok long term).

I used to work for a horrible team of partners in a city firm (magic circle) so left for in-house. Ten years later and I'm actually back to private practice at a smaller city firm after meeting the partners and team and loving them. I think as others have said it really comes down to the team.

I definitely care too much. I need to not allow the feedback to upset me so much. It just makes me feel so rubbish when I really do do my best.

I think I will try and stick it out for mat leave but if it takes longer then expected then try and move