to feel like we were scammed into going to University?

[Schleep]

When I was at school (completed sixth form 2009), if you were academic it was assumed that you'd go to University. The whole thing was pushed incredibly hard on us and, in retrospect, was quite propaganda-like - we had external people come and do loads of assemblies on how amazing Uni Life was, lots and lots of talk about how University would guarantee us high paying jobs and we were repeatedly told to not worry about the debt, the interest rate is practically zero and we'd never even realise the money was coming out.
(Of course, when you're in your teens, debt looks like free money anyway)

Fast forward 10, 15 years later - and all my friends are saddled with huge debts that they'll likely be paying off for the rest of their lives.
A lot of them have had their repayment contracts changed so its no longer written off after a certain time, the payment terms are not as favourable and interest rates have gone up.

I dodged a bullet by being rebellious and dropping out after just 1 term, and that term was just before the fees tripled (at the time, you'd have thought I was ruining my life the way the University/everyone responded.) and I feel incredibly lucky. A degree would not have increased my employability and I have no student debt.
But I have friends and family genuinely upset at the hundreds they're forking out each month for something they didn't want and (at least in their cases) they simply do not use.

I find it baffling that the system was funnelling people out of the workforce, into unnecessary (in many cases) education and saddling people with huge amounts of debt.

Then your husband's IT company is missing out on a lot of good staff. I lead IT for a fairly well known organisation, and I refuse to make having a degree an essential criterion for any role. You need to show ability, and have a commitment to learning which has to be evidenced in some way, but there are a lot of paths to careers in IT which do not require a degree.

For instance - developers who do boot camps and other industry training, business analysts who start out in other roles and then do an apprenticeship, older people who learned on the job, support technicians who start with apprenticeships, hobbyists who go pro by doing something clever, getting a job and doing a lot of self-learning.

I went to uni in the same year as you, just before the fees went up. I did a practical degree and paid off my debts (£20k) after 5 years, now earn 6 figures and wouldn’t have had the success if it weren’t for uni. If I had walked away with poor grades or a less desirable degree then it would have made it much harder to have the same success. I also worked hard to secure internships and other experience like volunteering whilst at uni. Friends who expected a job just for getting a degree have struggled.

To those fuckers still just flippantly calling it a "graduate tax", there's some of us who will have paid off our loan twice over by the time it gets written off because we have good but not massive incomes. Every pay rise I get feels like more of a burden on my employer rather than a boost for me - I see barely any of the extra cash, but the expectations from the employer get higher because I got a raise.

It's absolute bullshit. I started uni in the year fees tripled. I trusted the adults who told me this was the best path for me. My career doesn't require a degree although now with the rise of AI and ATS CV readers etc you essentially get auto rejected from roles if you don't have a "relevant" degree. So whilst the advice ended up correct, it's only because everyone was pushed into uni and employers are too lazy to use a better filter than 'degree' when shortlisting their candidates - It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

My husband is a lecturer and seen how fee increases have created a cohort of students who treat uni as a service provider, they demand re-marks and easy passes, they're motivated to cheat and buy their essays or use AI because they can't "afford" to fail. We are getting cohorts of students who can barely write an essay but feel they're owed a degree because they've paid upwards of 50k for the experience and know they're potentially fucked for future employment if they don't get their degree...

I worked out that I'll have paid 150k for university by the time my loan gets written off. Most of that is interest. It's absolutely criminal.

I hope that when my girl grows up there'll be more alternative routes to employment, in particular more apprenticeships and more vocational training.

Graduate tax my arse - if it was being reinvested into education then I might be able to swallow it, but it's only being used to satiate the appetite of these loan sharks at the SLC

Following on from the PP who's a lecturer - I'm involved in recruiting graduates in a tech/data filed, and the most important soft skill we require is critical thinking, the most important hard skill is wading through messy data, or data that's missing, or plain wrong, with the critical thinking skills to know what to do. Neither is taught in uni. The graduates turn up having only ever done projects where they've been given perfect clean data, and the project will have involved manipulating it in someway - but AI can do that! It's the thinking side of it that they are missing - having to think their way our of messy problems and situations: messy data, messy code, finding bugs in code etc, knowing who to talk to to sort it out, knowing who definitely not to talk to - these are the human things that add value over AI. And then the graduates get exasperated because they think we're not giving them the "real" work!

I left sixth form in 2007 so am from a similar era and think YANBU. I was always exam smart but have never been a true academic, I just have a great memory and aptitude for tests!

My college pushed me hard to apply to Oxbridge as I had exceptional GCSE results, I went to an open day and hated it. They continued to push so hard and acted like I was throwing my life away… I ended up not going to uni at all, got a data entry job at 18 and now I am a Principal Business Analyst for a tech company earning well compared to most of my uni going friends.

My lack of degree has never held me back in the IT/tech field and I have had lots of opportunities to take relevant courses and exams fully funded by my employer.

Interesting that I'm a few years younger and my experience in a co-ed comp and my experience was very different. The teachers were very keen to get more girls studying physics and getting involved in sports for example. Both secondaries I went too had a 'flat' fully kitted out, but these were generally closed off to students - at one the school nurse saw ill pupils in it. A friends mum told us that these 'flats' in secondary schools had been intended and had been used to teach girls housekeeping/cooking skills, but we we never were, as I guess that there had been a culture shift at some point previous and by then both boys and girls did Home Economics.
I do remember going from teachers teaching us formal letter writing and that even if a CV was typed a cover letter must be handwritten, to within two years being told off by a work placement for not applying with everything typed!
My Uni experience was a waste of time. I went to a former poly, and to be honest, some courses, like design, were probably excellent - mine was ultimately pointless though, and I would have been better off and probably learnt more quickly by going straight into an office environment - but I am very lucky that I lived mostly in my family home and fees for a first degree were covered by the LEA then.

Most successful people I know who have achieved success have primarily achieved it through hard work and that includes studying at 3rd level and very often beyond

To apply for my role now most adverts require a Masters or preferably a doctorate.

Is it needed - not really if you have experience.

Double debt and the salary doesn’t really cover being able to pay it all off.

I totally agree with you, it’s portrayed as go to uni or fail. Yet I know many who have sought after practical skill, who earn well, are in demand and are happy. I equally know people who have a degree, can’t get a job and have loads of debt. I graduated in 2012 before the fee hike. I now work pt and am only accruing interest on my debt. Yes the country needs people with degrees, but equally needs electricians and plumbers. what would happen if everyone got a degree? No wonder we rely on workers from overseas

I’m thinking of all the people I know who did something totally different after their degrees. Our school was in the league tables in Ireland so barely mentioned things like apprenticeships until the day before the deadlines for them. I’m definitely telling my kids they should look at every option

I was lucky in that fees were smaller and my dad was a manager at Unilever and they paid employees children a grant if they went to university. They paid it to me for 4 years so my actual debt was small and I have paid it off.

DH's grandparents and parents had saved money to help their grandchildren/children go to uni. He had his half and SIL had hers. He also worked for a few years before he went and had savings.

There were few choices than other than uni and research showed that people who went to uni had much better life chances all round than those that didn't. If I look at my class from school, - the ones who went to uni are well-off with excellent careers- Drs, surgeons, Headteachers, dentists, scientists, professors in unis, live in nice houses in good areas. The ones that didn't have achieved much less- not to say they aren't happy or that the ones who went to uni are happy.

We save for our 3 DC to support them at uni but I am hoping they might take other routes. They are very young at the moment and it isn't an issue but my godchldren did degree apprenticeships and are flying already- qualified, in great jobs, no debts, excellent salaries but the companies really want their pounds of flesh!

I'm gen X, and left secondary school in 1991. For context, my school got computers one year before I left, and my year weren't allowed to use them as we were leaving soon. It was a girls school, and we had typing lessons and home economics classes. It was expected that we would be secretaries, until we had kids. Even though only 30ish years ago, it was a different world, with far less career opportunities for women.

As a previous poster has said, I don't think this was typical. I'm also Gen X but left school years before you (1987). Our school had computers for several years before I left. I did Computer Studies at CSE level. We certainly weren't told we were expected to become secretaries then mothers. I don't ever recall being told there were only certain career paths open to me. Maybe your experience was more typical of all girl schools.

I live in the midlands in an average cost of living place.
The people I know who earn the most are those who didn’t go to university; instead learned a trade. So many people went to university that there is now a shortage of tradespeople so they can name their own price.

It probably has already been mentioned, but I think the key is that we try to navigate our children towards specialisations that help them make big money, like STEM, finance, accounting, medicine, etc. Otherwise I think university is a waste of money - I see that graduate jobs pay minimum wage these days. Or if they really want to study something else, I'l say, fine, but don't take a loan for accommodation, they can stay with us and commute. The debt burden would be too much. I did graduate in another country and it was free (lucky me), but my art degree is totally useless after 20 years, esp. with AI taking over.

My youngest DS is 30 now. He didn't want to go to university despite us encouraging him to. He had good A level grades, better than his friends who did go. Now his friends far outearn him. One is on £90k and has repaid his loan in full. The other on £67k and is a good way to repay his loan as he pays chunks off with his bonuses. My DS earnings is closer to £30k. Despite this he is buying his own house, has a nic car, has no debt and manages his money well. I think both routes can work provided getting the degree will mean a better paid job. Some degrees will never lead to a well paid job and young people should be wary of doing those degrees.

I think it’s easy for people to look back and think they were “scammed” into going to university. My son’s school holds an annual careers fair, with numerous stalls - universities, apprenticeships, various major local companies, police/fire service etc. I made it clear to my son that I would support anything he chose to do, as long as it wasn’t loafing around at home doing nothing, or working in a casual no-prospect job. He needed to have a plan. He chose university. The friends of his who didn’t go to uni and didn’t get a “proper job” are now drifting, working in bars, no idea what they want to do, feeling depressed, missing their old school friends.

I think it’s great when school leavers have a plan, know what they want to do, and set about making it happen . But many of them have no idea, so for them, getting a degree may be the best course of action.

I would love to know the numbers on this?

I didn’t think there were any repayment plans which see people repaying double their loan on a 'good but not great' salary but y definition may be different to yours (edited to say that). On most you’d pay it off before you hit numbers like that. Just play around with the calculators to see.

also worth noting that the average graduate premium is £130k over your life. So on a good salary you’d expect that to be higher and have covered your £150k payments. Of course there will be exceptions to every case

@CaribouCarafe and even if it is basically a graduate tax (I actually have no issue calling it such) why does that make it no big deal? I think if a decision I made at 17/18 would change my tax rate for life that’s something I should take very seriously.

9% extra tax above a threshold little more than minimum wage is a lot. Now for some people it is still worth it because you’ll earn a lot more than 9% more, no one would argue this.. but for others, I can see how it is difficult to accept that you will pay hundreds extra in tax every month for the entirety of your working life because of a decision you made when you were basically still a child.

I worked in a middle eastern country and discovered that all university placements are fully funded and even study abroad is fully funded. Other countries fund their grads. I am in a senior position and now hire for grad placements and have done in a few different companies I have worked with, major blue chip UK companies. Now, to hire for these it is often a full lengthy application process and then days of workshops where candidates are graded fairly by a large panel of people, based on how they perform. Most placements actually end up going to the non british applicants as they simply perform a lot better. I don't think this fair and I do think the grad placements should be offered to British nationals. When hiring for junior roles again, it is the non british nationals that often get the roles. I have thoughts on as to why and I think it stems from attitude to learning, attitude to working and a sense of entitlement that comes with being British. I think to not fund higher education is putting britain on the back foot globally. I think degrees have value on the global stage and for some careers they are definitely needed. Yes, you can earn and succeed without a degree, but if we want British children to have the same opportunities as other countries are pushing for their youth then we need to have degree level educated british children. Fast track and grad programs in our major companies, utilities, transport, media, telecoms and more are for developing the leaders of tomorrow. If we are not supplying british cadidates to the market then we will not have british people at the helm. The candidates I see that were educated outside of england then either took their degree in england to get a foot into the UK or moved here for their first jobs are just great candidates and they are getting hired over British candidates. Its not a degree problem its a problem with education in general and a huge lack of funding.

^This.
The #1 factor that determines whether you will have a financially comfortable life is who your parents were. Hard work barely makes a difference.

Completely agree OP. I started Uni in 2010, and all through my 2 years of sixth form, we had constant assemblies/meetings/presentations from Uni representatives going on and on about how wonderful Uni is. It was absolutely the default expectation that the whole sixth form cohort would and should be applying. Interest rates were never even mentioned…and that alone is absolutely criminal because they are so incredibly high. Students and their parents should be fully informed and know exactly what they’re getting into.

I have a very vivid memory from year 13. I was sat in my English Literature A Level class, of which we only had about 10 students. The teacher was chatting to us about University, and she went round each one of us asking about our plans. She got to one boy, who said he was applying, but he was hesitant when he said it and the teacher picked up on this. She then said to him (and to all of us) that we should really be sure that university is the right choice for us. She said not to let anyone pressure us into it, including our parents, and that there were plenty of other options out there, that university wasn’t the be all and end all and it isn’t the right choice for everyone. That was the one and only time during my school career that anyone ever said that, and the fact that it came from our teacher was even more incredible. It’s really stuck with me, even 15 years later.

I did go to university, and I’m someone who did benefit from it as I couldn’t be in my current career without a degree, but the amount of people I know who are my age and ended up with a degree that serves no purpose to them and a load of debt, simply because university was the route we were all sent down no matter what, is really high.

I’ve just looked it up (I am fortunate enough to have repaid my loan) and Plan 2 interest (university between 2012 and 2023, so a huge bracket of people) is a whopping 7.3% if you are a middle rate / 40% tax payer - but lower if you earn less(!). So basically structured so that the more you earn the more you owe and it is difficult to get out of.

If you earn 60k a year you will be paying back £245 a month, which is less than the interest you are accruing if you have a loan of say, 45k .. and next year the loan will be slightly bigger.

I can very easily see how some people will be paying back such big amounts over their working lives. All you have to do is earn enough that they suddenly charge you more and it is very difficult to ever repay the damn thing.

ChoccyJules · Today 11:07
But DH says his (IT) company disregard anyone without a degree so...

I begged my children not to go to university. Neither were interested in academic work and they’d have been better off getting a job.
However as ChoccyJules says, the one argument I couldn’t refute was the necessity of a degree to even apply for a job.
My dc enjoyed themselves at university and made lots of friends but my daughter is now a well paid PA using skills she learned on a course after university and my son’s work has no connection with his degree.

YANBU

Daughter (25) did a degree - now earning £13 an hour at a cafe - ££££s student loan debt

Son (20) went straight into work - now on nearly £30K a year, no debt and on track to put a £15k deposit down on a flat next year

I'm a university lecturer and I totally agree.

If parents and students had any idea of the institution I work for, they'd save their 60k, spend a fraction of that on practical training and join the workforce at least 2 years sooner...

My universty is run entirely for profit and puts investors first, students and academic rigour are way down the list of its priorities. Lectures like me are in unstable zero-hours contracts, with no pay rise for over 7 years and pensions, sick pay, maternity leave are all a distant dream.

I've basically quiet quit, and so have most other people teaching there. I feel so sorry for the students and do the best I can for them, tutoring and offering accademic support for free, but they've been royally shafted.

It has taken me a while to understand exactly what is going on, and I'm really sad about it. Univerisity isn't what it was when I went (early 90's) and profit is everything.

I won't stop my DC going if they really want to, but I won't encourage it either, which is really sad because they're academic kids and deserve a good education.