Neurodivergent husband has brought me to my knees, am I unreasonable to leave him ?

[MyNextSteps]

This is my first Mumsnet post so I'm sorry but this will be a long rant. But I have really lost my way and would appreciate everyone's thoughts.

My husband and I are in our late 50s and have been married for 25 years and have 5 kids who are late teens/20s.

The marriage has always had something "not quite right", something missing which I couldn't explain. DH didn't have many girlfriends I thought he was just shy. Once married I always felt he was avoidant, pulling away, preoccupied, unavailable, never initiated sex. If I ever tried to raise it, even gently, he was irritable and defensive, saying my "constant criticism and oversensitivity" was the problem and then he'd try to run away or hang up the phone or get busy or fall asleep or get one of the kids to interrupt us to shut me down. He is also very interested in facts not feelings and tends to disconnect from conversations once he's satisfied himself of the facts.

Eventually I dragged DH to therapy wondering if he was a covert narcissist but this year he's been diagnosed with High Functioning Autism Level 1 (Aspergers) which explains everything. I feel I'm in a nightmare as our story started out as a fairytale with our beautiful kids but now I'm acceptingw nothing will change with DH.

We both had good careers but I stayed at home to raise the kids. He worked hard to provide for us all but had a long commute. We moved out to the coast and bought a rambling old house with land, did it up and we have a small holding with animals. DH seemed to avoid intimacy but I didn't question it as he was tired and working so hard and so was I. He never took me out in the evening or hired a babysitter or took me away for a few nights. We only ever went away with the kids but I was so in the tunnel of parenthood and we didn't have much money to spare so I didn't really stop to question it.

Gradually the kids grew up and then DH stopped work and I thought we would spend more time together but I gradually realized he wasn't interested. Once he stopped work and was around 24/7 and the kids were grown up, it dawned on me that he was just making excuses to avoid time with me and avoid intimacy.

We did years of marriage therapy but he could neither express his feelings at all (alexithymia) or understand mine. He just cannot hear me - all he can hear is that he's being criticized and then he becomes a professional victim. I have given him a million chances to sort himself out, so many times we have fought and he always comes back, says sorry but nothing changes. Our therapist said he wouldn't change and to leave him as he wasn't able or interested in meeting my needs.

Some of the worst family fights have been when I have been angry with DH and then he goes to the kids and portrays himself as a victim and me as the perpetrator. Then the kids (who are angry he's so weak) stand up for him. So I'm then fighting my own kids and he sits there with his head in his hands not speaking while it all kicks off between me and the kids.

So there have been times when the kids have seen me as the aggressive bad cop whilst he is good cop being their friend as he does everything for them, drives them around, gives them money and never sets rules or boundaries. Mum "wears the trousers" and keeps it all fair and accountable. Although the kids hate on me for being bad cop I notice when life gets tricky they all come running to me for guidance because I'm actually the only real parent.

Every time the whole family gets together which is now only about twice a year I work hard to cook food and make it nice but either my husband or one of the ND kids has a meltdown or shutdown which ruins the occasion and the family doesn't speak for months, I am beginning to dread get togethers.

Now his daily routine is to get up feeling anxious and then just drift around for the rest of the day, no plan, no goals, achieving not much, never gets together with friends, sometimes hangs with his family (many of them have the same issues as him) low functioning, wears same clothes for days. If I ask him to do something he'll do it eventually but then says I'm bossy and that he feels "controlled" and then makes sure the kids know it.

Some of our kids have various neurodiverse traits/issues and DH and I clashed seriously about how to raise them because as a ND himself his first instinct was to deny their problems and help them to mask whereas I as an NT wanted to get them diagnosed and get them help. DH also insisted that we don't mention anyone's diagnosis in the family (shame) so when several of the kids have huge meltdowns we are not allowed to address it with the other kids and I can see that they feel guilty and responsible when it's not their fault.

Things have come to a head in the last few months. DH was being assessed for suspected cancer. He wasn't able to process many feelings about that beyond being sure he didn't want the kids to know. I did all the worrying and supporting whilst he looked blank and numb all through Christmas. Finally this week he got the "all clear", he did express some relief but I was hugely emotional after the hospital.

The same night one of our kids rang up and shouted at me because she'd given a message to DH for me to do something but he hadn't passed it on to me so I hadn't done what she needed me to do. I was still emotional from the hospital so after she'd put the phone down I was angry with DH that he hadn't passed on the message. He denied this so we started to argue. DH then portrayed himself a a victim in front of one of our sons who got aggressive with me and goaded and shoved me (he's 6 ft) and started being verbally abusive and telling me I was crazy (he didn't know about the hospital or cancer scare at all so didn't know why I was so emotional). I said to DH "tell him to stop" but DH said "why should he stop abusing you when you abuse me ?" (professional victim).

In that moment after 25 years something snapped in me. I did something I've never done before. I calmly put together a small bag of clothes and walked out. I drove off and checked into a local B&B where I am sitting now with no idea about my next move.

DH has brought me to my knees. It's not what he does, it's what he DOESN'T do, he's just absent from our marriage. He doesn't want me to leave but he doesn't want to have a relationship with me either. He just wants a housekeeper/secretary/organizer/mother not a wife. I want to leave him but then I break up the family, we lose our lovely home and I get blamed for that by him and the kids, I lose my smallholding and animals and will have to give up my dream part time job that I have taken up in the last few years too, so essentially I lose my entire life as it is currently.

I rang DH from the B&B to discuss the issues. He said "all you do is criticize me, I'm a victim" and hung up. He didn't want to discuss the issues because he can't summarize or express his feelings. He says he can't change and I am persecuting him to do things he can't do. He then said by the way if I was moving out then he'd sell our home and small holding because he wasn't interested in it anyway he only bought it for me (first I heard about that, he was the one that insisted we buy it when I wanted to stay in the city !). I went back briefly to our home to collect clothes etc and he was just lying flat on the sofa staring into space, washing left in the machine overnight, last night's dinner still on the table untouched, curtains not drawn, animals not fed, plants not watered, post not opened etc.

AIBU to leave and break up the family and sell our family home and smallholding and rehome the animals ? Or am I overreacting and should I accept he can't change, stop asking him to and just suck it up for the sake of the family ? DH is not a bad person, we have a lot in common with our joint kids, life and animals. He worked hard to support us all, he's never been unfaithful or had addictions or been abusive (contrast I've been a drunk and screaming harridan more than once when pushed beyond human limits by rigid and goading ND family members). I am also nearly 60 and have let myself go with all the stress. Dating now fills me with horror, what are my chances anyway and my friends are having horror stories on Bumble.... I would also have to go back to full time work at 60 to support myself and the children would be hostile to a new partner as they feel responsible for their victim dad. But he is not my husband or lover and he's more friends with the kids than a father to them. He is a professional victim and he has no capacity for a marriage or partnership with me. I would be happy to live alone but I keep having the sad thought that I don't want to get to the end of my life without having experienced a true and loving partnership.

If I could find a way to stay with DH I would but I have tried to compromise a million times. I don't want to have an affair either but it seems that if I stay I would have to completely deny my own needs for love, support, intimacy, boundaries, joint parenting, joy etc and life is too short for that. Advice please.

I read your post and "if you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always got" sprung into my head. You've worked and done and enabled and kept secrets for him all this time and where has it got you? If you leave, you will have a chance at a good and real relationship with your DC rather than your H playing victim and using you as a mask for his ND. Even if you don't have a relationship with another man, that's worth so much.

Also, look at finances and maybe see a soliticotr. You'd be entitled to a fair share even if you're the one initiating divorce so maybe you wouldn't need to go back to work at nearly 60? Is there a way you can you keep your PT job?

Yes, yes, yes to reading Lundy Bancroft's book as previously linked. Men can be ND AND abusive, it isn't necessarily "accidental abuse" due to the ND. Lundy goes through all the supposed "reasons" for abuse and debunks them. It's really eye opening.

Once you're out of the marriage, I'd then tell your DC some of the factors - that your H has autism and has never been able to be emotionally available, that he was going through a potential cancer diagnosis but not that your marriage lacked intimacy (too personal for DC to handle imo).

@SixtySomething Many of your posts are very negative and frankly, ageist.

A lot of the decline you mention for 'over 60s' is down to lifestyle choices and can be avoidable with sensible behaviour like not being overweight, exercising, and taking care of health. (And yes, some people are unlucky even if they do all of that.)

My friends in their 60s are full of beans, really busy, some still working, travelling, etc etc.

IME the 'rot' tends to set in at 80+ not 60.

Did you not know 60 is the new 40?

I think it must be depend on whom you know.

Thank you to all of the people who have posted replies, I didn't expect such a response and feel totally overwhelmed, thank you. I'm also feeling comforted that the vast majority of people have validated the fact that I am living in an impossible situation and a decision about a way forward is very difficult as there are losses which ever way I turn. I thought I might be missing the wood for the trees, but the community has turned over the many angles to consider. Ending a marriage and everything you've built together, family, home, smallholding, part time job locally is a lot and scary.

What all your posts has brought home to me is that HE WILL NOT CHANGE, HE CANNOT CHANGE. I think this fact has only just drilled into my brain and I'm finally accepting it. I always felt there was hope and perhaps I have been unreasonable in demanding that he change, but it was only when he got his diagnosis earlier this year that I understood what was causing the lack of understanding between us (ie I am NT and he is ND) and the toxic dynamic and conflict that has so impacted on our children which I deeply regret. But at that point hope of my needs being met in the marriage ended. But also I'm grieving it very deeply because the whole life we built is and always was a dream built on shifting sands. It was never going to work and I am sitting with that reality now.

I guess that in a way the thinking is clearer now that all hope of change is gone. It's not the autism that is the problem, it's the continual disregard for me as a person and my needs or wants and the complete disinterest in having a marriage from his side. He is not eager for me to stay by finding compromises, he's not thinking about things at all. I either stay with someone who cannot have an emotional/sexual relationship with me OR I leave and be on my own but also on my own terms. I think that makes it a lot clearer that I need to leave whatever the losses.

I have now been away from home for 4 nights and am going to go and stay with my daughter at her flat for a couple more nights. What is most insightful is that during this 4 day period my husband has not contacted me AT ALL. He is one half of this marriage but he has not reached out at all. If it was the other way round and he had walked out for 4 nights I would be messaging saying: "where are you ? what are you thinking ? where do we go from here ? what do you want ? I love you, I want you back, what can I do differently so you will come back ? I'm sorry for what kicked off to make you leave, what growth mindset can I have about lessons from that episode and making sure that never happens again ?" And general reflection on the way forward and begging him to return.

But I am met with absolute silence. He does even know where I am or if I'm OK. He knew that I was meant to be away one night for a medical appointment on the third day but no alarm bells seem to have rung in his head when I didn't return, about where I am or whether I'm OK. His thinking will be something like "mummy knows what she's doing and when she's ready she'll tell me, so I'll wait for that and then I'll accept whatever she says as I have no power I'm just a victim. And if she says she wants to leave and sell up then OK when does she want me to book a moving company". He's just so passive and he can only take practical decisions about next steps. In the past he has just said "sorry, don't leave" but nothing else. Doesn't realise he has any agency to say what he wants or to be part of the decision etc. Doesn't realise he has a say in the marriage and the direction of our joint future - I've been saying it to him for years but he doesn't get it. Just passively waits to be told what will happen next on practical issues. It is so crazy making it just makes me so exasperated (hence when other things like cancer scares and ND children are in the way is can eventually lead to me screaming, drinking being a harridan etc)

His thinking is always ALL about him. Whether he's being "attacked or criticized or bullied or bossed around or controlled" etc. He's just scanning the horizon for threats to react to, his amygdala in on constant hyper alert (which must be terrible for him but it's also terrible for me). And if he feels he is the victim then he reacts and shuts down and tries to get pity and manipulates other people (mainly his kids) to stand up for him. But if he's not being made to feel like a victim then he calms down and his mind wanders back to his special interests and can't see me or my needs let alone my feelings at all.

I still wonder how much of his behaviour is manipulative - whether he really can only see his own victimhood and therefore shuts down so the children take over or whether it is manipulation. Although saying "oh well I'll sell the home" within 3 minutes of me walking out was definitely manipulative. From his perspective if he can really only see his own point of view and his own needs and his own victimhood and perceived lack of power in the marriage dynamic, then it is possible that his responses are all autistic rather than narcissistic. But really it doesn't matter - the takeaway is that he cannot meet me half way or even 10% of the way in a joint marriage.

To clarify some other issues:

We only received the diagnosis this summer so it's not like either of us knew before that. So I didn't go into the marriage with my "eyes open" as some people suggested. I thought over time that he was perhaps narcissistic as he put himself first all the time and didn't have much care for any of us. But also his upbringing was quite traumatic and he was quite shy. We had an excellent therapist and, whatever she knew, for the first few years she worked on trying to get him to open up and work on his alexithymia (and my anxious attachment/low self esteem that i kept putting up with crumbs) but it was only after 5 years that she announced that she had failed to make any difference in the alexithymia or ability to see anyone else, or the victimhood and that she thought I'd be better off with someone else and he would be better of alone. Having announced that she then said she couldn't help us any more and terminated the sessions, suggesting that we broke up as unable to meet each others needs and that I get individual therapy to process what had happened and decide a way forward. Then his diagnosis confirming everything.

In defence of my son, he is NT and usually one of the most sensitive and supportive ones but I think all the kids have been worn down by our toxic dynamic over the last 10 years and the shoving was the biproduct of him standing in between us because he could sense unusually high levels of emotions from me at least (not knowing about the cancer scare) and was perhaps frightened about me exploding and becoming a harridan and wanted to protect my husband as he's been trained to do. But also whilst I become emotional when processing trauma, my husband does not get emotional but instead (consciously or not) goads FRANTICALLY after a trauma like that to get me screaming or fighting (usually with my kids not him) so he can cathartically get his feelings out without being involved directly in conflict. Other posters with ND husbands have posted that this is a known dynamic which our couples therapist also picked up on.

Regarding dating again, I take the point from many posters that I need to get myself sorted out before thinking about another relationship but also I've not had intimacy for 10 years already. Maybe a fling just to bring that part of me back to life at some point once I'm settled. I don't need another relationship at this point but I feel sad if I go through my entire life and die without properly experiencing a loving partnership. He is not gay, he's very low libido, full of shame and masking about whether he's doing it "right" ie in an NT way, and has sensory issues that make him avoid it at all costs and also avoid any intimate activities (going on a date etc) that might lead to sex. So I am feeling fairly intimacy starved, just someone to hold me and stroke my hair and kiss me and say something authentically nice about me so I can remember what it felt like and be seen and validated through someone else's eyes. I could have done with that some days as I raised our kids just to unwind at the end of a long day but he didn't want it hence wine was sometimes my friend.

Thanks again to all posters, I really appreciate the support. Xx

Have permission to do what you want to do. You have sacrificed decades if you want a fling, bloody well have one! We have one life op. We can’t pour precious resources and energies into someone that hasn’t even bothered to call or text. Doesn’t that just say it all?

Go as gently as you can as you extract yourself, and be understanding of the choir of emotions as you finally take the plunge but I very much doubt you will ever look back. The rest of your life starts here.

Its those that continue to live in toxic or unsatisfactory relationships that end up getting ill at a younger age.

All that resentment and anger and feeling like you aren’t free has a physical effect on the body

MyNextSteps
Is he feeding the animals?

or do you have someone who can go around to check.

Otherwise if anything happens and you get angry he will once again play the victim

@MyNextSteps its good you’ve found some clarity and perspective on what to do next. My only suggestion is to attempt to move forward in the most detached and unemotional way possible when dealing with your husband. He will be the ultimate victim (she’s leaving me after I was diagnosed with autism and cancer, breaking up our family when we need her most etc). You need to think carefully about how you communicate your plans and reasons with both him, your children and wider family/friends. It’s clearly a very emotional thing for all involved and from what you’ve written you sound like a heart on your sleeve kind of person but in this situation you may be better served by being more reserved. Don’t be goaded into conflict, don’t be guilted into reacting, that’s what he needs to justify the situation and how none of it is his doing. You need to allow yourself to maintain your relationship with your children the best you can and that may mean having to act in a way that your husband can’t be the victim in their eyes.

Now is the perfect time to leave. He got an “all clear” on cancer and he won’t admit to the autism diagnosis so what is there to be said?

Just don’t engage in any argument. Leaving someone is not a negotiation. Its a decision.

Go home. Settle the animals. Hire a solicitor. And leave as fast as you can with your share of the assets.

When H or your children abuse you for it just say “this is one more reason for me to leave.”

All I see here is a very incompatible "couple". 90% of your complaints is really because you're both not compatible and not necessarily what he's done wrong. You're who you are and he's who he is. You're probably more susceptible and willing to change and he is both not the same way AND he doesn't actually see that there's a problem to change. I

It's such a shame that it took this long but you've reached a stalemate and all you can do is to separate as practically, logically and rationally as you can. Get a solicitor and stick to the facts, follow their guidance and do what you have to do. Once you've made your clean break, you can find anyone of your liking for companionship.

I'm sure it won't be easy for you as it seems you've put so much emotionally in this relationship but just remember that he's your opposite - sometimes opposites attract and sometimes they clash. Yours is clashing. The right thing is to separate and be as happy as you can again.

Your children will deal; they're adults.

“perhaps frightened about me exploding and becoming a harridan and wanted to protect my husband as he's been trained to do”

it’s sad that your husband and son have made you feel like that OP, and very misogynistic.
@MyNextSteps

I wish all the contortionists who fantasize that the dh is the victim here would stop censoring OP or finding excuses for the dh. Adults with ND who hold down jobs and have five children are just as responsible for managing to live harmoniously with their families as NT people who accept these duties.

You’ve done your time. You have put up with an enough bad treatment both from him and your children. Get out and start looking after your own interests. Let him sort himself out. You children can sort themselves out too.

I've read your update OP. I agree with a recent poster who says the ND label is irrelevant. This is a long marriage that's not working- the reason why isn't that important.

I've already said you should leave.
However, I also think that when you reflect on this in years to come you may acknowledge that this marriage wasn't good from the start. You said as much in your first post.

I'm sorry to say this but your H's reaction could simply say he doesn't care. I know you feel angry and want to 'blame' him for being passive. But the fact is he doesn't appear to be bothered. And like many men, they wait for the woman to make the break as they don't have enough balls to do it.

This is really, really common. Another version of it is the 'exit affair' to bring the whole thing to a head.

It's a mistake to blame all of this on him being neurodiverse. There are millions of people who are ND and manage to have successful relationships. We're all 'on the spectrum' to an extent - it's a spectrum with a wide range.

I take with a pinch of salt some diagnoses. It's not easy to diagnose any personality issue like this as it's all based on Q&A interview, with no absolute definition.

So, I'd forget his diagnosis and focus on the fact that your marriage has run its course. You have to accept that you're part of that decline by putting up with it for so long.

Yes, it's not easy to start again at 59, but you had a career, you can pickup work of some sort.

You'll get a 50-50 settlement at least, you probably won't be poor as you've had a career so presumably you're able to access a good pension as you've retired young.

Try to be positive about how you can adjust and create a happier life.

Yeah I've not really talked about whether he's ND or NPD because for me it's about how you are treated. If the way you are being treated is intolerable then it doesn't matter what's behind it.

I think all you can do is get good legal advice and seek support from people that you can trust. He will just have to do the same.

Also being ND is not a free pass to behave like a selfish whining wanker. ND myself.

Regarding why I stayed so long.....for the first 10 years I was dealing with small children and babies and he was working hard so not much time for each other but normal for that stage of life.

The sex stopped as soon as our last child was born (others have said this about ND husbands too) around the 10 year mark. And as the kids got older and we could have had more time for each other he didn't seem interested.

Plus around the 16 year mark as the children became teenagers (some with ND) it became clear he couldn't set boundaries with them or be a parent and he was just their friend.

That's when the alarms went off in my head. But I REALLY REALLY LOVED HIM and I wanted to hang on to the family and life we had worked so hard to build together. I didn't want to risk throwing it all away and regretting it. And I wanted to find out the reasons he wasn't fulfilling his marriage/parenting obligations to see if things could improve. I was in too deep to quit.

I eventually persuaded him to have couples therapy which went on for 6 years and we only got a diagnosis after that. So really I don't think we could have done this any quicker unless I had just walked away at the 16 year mark.

I thought we would come out of couples therapy in better shape but it's just sad to put in all that time and effort and money and then find out that nothing can be done to fix things.

I just hope that in the future people can get earlier ND diagnoses so that they and their partners can understand the possible dynamics of an NT/ND marriage and make more informed choices.

100%

And re-emphasising to get legal advice before you go back to the house, OP, so you have a plan and can tell him that you will be leaving, divorcing, and how you expect it to play out.

When I told my husband I wanted a divorce (which is probably the hardest thing I ever did after 19.5 years of marriage) my main aim was to be 100% clear - these are the facts; This is what happens next. This is what you do and what I do so there was no room for negotiation about my decision. However only have that conversation when it is clear that is what you want. Good luck. My divorce was one of the best things I did by the way. It is not always a negative process. It can instead lead to everyone - both parents and the children being happier.

Much as I love our home and smallholding, I also don't think I'm one of those people who can "co-exist" in the same house with my ex-DH whilst doing my own thing as some people somehow manage (or do out of necessity).

DH would be fine with it as it's what he does anyway. But in the presence of someone who constantly ignores me sooner or later I'd have to say something 😉

I just hope that in the future people can get earlier ND diagnoses so that they and their partners can understand the possible dynamics of an NT/ND marriage and make more informed choices.

While I agree with diagnosis where necessary, it's really not so much about NT/ND dynamic but a dynamic between two incompatible partners. Some NT/NT can be incompatible and have similar problems too due to that; some ND/ND couples can have the same problems too because we're all different. Humans are also multifaceted so it isn't always just the "NT-ness" or "ND-ness" but also personality, character, values, upbringing, etc...basically nature + nurture that can make people turn out the way they do. Some people are able and willing to compromise or sacrifice or change; others aren't.

So the advice is to go into any relationship with eyes open. Love+practicality and don't ignore red flags or think you can change them.

We're all 'on the spectrum' to an extent - it's a spectrum with a wide range.

No. If you're autistic then you're on the spectrum.

If you're not autistic then you're not on the spectrum.

Implying we're all a little bit autistic is ableist.

That isn't to say that if you're not autistic you don't have needs but you can't possibly have autism spectrum disorder if you're not autistic so therefore NT people aren't on the spectrum.

Have you ever been/are you in a NT/ND romantic relationship?

If yes, then you would understand that the parent/child dynamic is ubiquitous in such relationships where there is neither acceptance of it or an attempt to mitigate the inadequacies in said relationships.

It is not simply about incompatibility.

If yes, then you would understand that the parent/child dynamic is ubiquitous in such relationships where there is neither acceptance of it or an attempt to mitigate the inadequacies in said relationships.

That is still a generalisation; not all NT/ND relationships have the same dynamic and yes it's about the compatibility/lack of compatibility of the NT and ND person as much as it is with an ND/ND person. It doesn't always work with the latter either. Compatibility is multifaceted, as I said.

I am very familiar with the situation you have found yourself in having been there myself - main issues avoidant of emotional intimacy, unable to discuss or confront issues, weak parenting / boundaries /discipline and then often undermining my parenting, lazy domestically etc. Mine was also an alcoholic and I became that screeching loon.

I have had plenty of time to reflect and know that my own very difficult childhood set me up to be driven, be the coper, leader, accept crumbs and have zero expectations of having any emotional needs met. We met very young (at school) and I will admit that I had to push him for 'normal' life stages - buying a house, building his career, getting married, having children etc. I should have taken notice of his resistance and I just took on all of the chores and he was a reluctant passenger....worse even a friend described our family as a canoe with me paddling a the front and him derailing at the back. I didnt know then (due to shit childhood) about boundaries, equality etc. I kept myself busy with lots of children, friends and a demanding career....and I can see now that I wasnt paying attention to what was going on. I wonder if you ave done that too - made youself busy as an unconscious destraction with children and animals (compulsive care-giving?) ... and you just burn out at menopause? Myabe you were just no compatible from the start?