To suggest she doesn’t report it? *TW- sexual assault*

[Waitingroomsally]

MNHQ posting: Can we request everyone read the second post from this user before responding to the word 'borderline' as it appears to be derailing the thread.

My friend is emotionally fragile at the moment and has been in therapy for several years as a result of her chaotic romantic life and inability to find stability and calm across all aspects of her life. There is always a drama going on and she is always one conversation away from tears.

Recently she met a man who sexually assaulted her. I am trying to remain objective: it was borderline.* She didn’t explicitly say ‘no’, but he overpowered her and pinned her down and she made it clear that it wasn’t what she wanted. To my mind, it was assault and it was wrong but it can’t be proven. She didn’t go to a clinic afterwards, no bruises or marks and she has no evidence. It is her word against his. She has asked me if I think she should report it to the police ‘so that it can go to trial’. I doubt it would get that far. Conviction rates are low, even in cases that are more clear-cut than this and where there is more evidence.

If I was advising a stranger I would say yes, report it, give a statement, hand over your messages, prevent this from happening to another woman. I am a very strong believer in justice and ending violence towards women. But she is my friend and she would not survive an interrogation. She would not survive the suggestion of being disbelieved. If they logged it and told her there was nothing more they could do, she may not be able to deal with that. In fact, I suspect even the experience of having to give a police statement might be more damaging to her mental health.

I’m sure there would be some feeling of retribution for her personally as well as it being ‘the right thing to do’ but I don’t think she stands to gain anything from reporting this and wanting the police to press charges. She has her very fragile sanity to lose.

It is completely against my better judgement, but are there cases where it is better to walk away and do nothing?

Yes. I have reported a rape as a victim.
I have been raped, as a child at 9 years old and later on, as an adult.
I also lost my dear friend at the age of 11 to a rapist turned murderer.
I have spent 18 months bringing my daughter's rapist and abuser to justice. i reported him, to further answer your question.
My daughter was 11 at the time he was convicted. She is 14 now.
And yes, we are based in the UK.
It's an imperfect system. But it's the only one we've got.
HTH.

By the way, what drove you to ask me that question? This isn't a goady one on my part. I am just wondering why you questioned me on this.

I think the OP clarified that she meant it was borderline as to whether she would advise reporting or not doing so, NOT borderline assault or not.

I think it's a good idea to report. She can then decide in slower time whether to proceed

I'm a social worker and worked with rape victims - as young as 13. I work closely with the police. Honestly their attitudes are astounding, especially when the woman doesn't fit the typical 'victim' mould. If she is young, drunk, from a rough area, didn't fight back, it was a Wednesday etc etc, they just blame the woman and have little sympathy. It's almost impossible to get cps to take the case let alone actually get a conviction , and if that magically happens the time given is utterly pathetic.

I can say this IRL but if it were me or anyone I loved was raped or sexually assaulted I would say do not even bother reporting. Studies show time and again the process is retraumatising so I know there are those saying the process may help but I think that would be incredibly unlikely from what I've seen.

I'm sorry to be so negative and it is so so far from ok, but it's the reality.

Because you took it on yourself to speak for "us", and because generally the only people naive enough to say that women SHOULD report, nay, MUST report, are those who have no experience with being a victim of sexual assault in the judicial system. And I repudiate, with every fibre of my being, the idea that because someone has done something horrible and traumatic to you, it is now on YOUR shoulders to stop it from happening again. Like, first you got one of the shittiest burdens around, and then - surprise! - here's a bonus one, quite possibly just as bad or worse and all but impossible to meet.

The vast majority of reports are NFAed. If this man has raped before, this rape is not their responsibility, and if he rapes again, it is not OP's responsibility. It's the rapist's responsibility, and perhaps to some degree the police and CPS and those members of the public who serve on juries and believe rape myths. But a survivor's first and only responsibility is to themselves and their own recovery, and reporting is their choice to make, or not.

Read my first post.
MUST and SHOULD is not language I use.
I HOPE the OP's friend reports. It is her choice.
I think I made my language really clear.
And I don't think it's your place to call any woman naive. Whether we are survivors/victims or not, we are living in a world where risk of being sexually assaulted is woven into our human experience as females. And that shit's real and it's not going to go away. Ever. But the risk can be mitigated. People create risk. People also mitigate risk. I'd like to think I'm in the latter camp.

When I say we have a responsibility to report, it's not about 'putting the onus on women', it's certainly not about taking responsibility for the criminal's actions.
It's about flagging a danger in society, i.e. 'this is the guy who raped me and I am reporting him to protect myself and others.' I don't see the problem with that.
When there's a fire, we shout, 'Fire!'.

I know firsthand the trauma of reporting. My daughter said, more than once, 'Sometimes I wish I never disclosed.' It's really fucking hard and police are really not fun to deal with. That's for another thread.
You open up a can of worms when you disclose. You unleash the trauma when you report. And dealing with the police and the law and the systemic misogyny within both those entities is not at all fun. Reporting is pretty traumatic and awful. But, for me, personally, I wasn't going to let the offender in my life and then my daughter's life just waltz off like 'it ain't no thing'. They had to face the consequences of their heinous actions. For me, personally, silence was not and is not an option. That's a personal perspective. I don't expect everyone to agree,

I do believe that as individuals, we have freedom of choice. Report or don't report. We all have a choice. I know what mine is. I've lived it. But as part of a female collective, given my own experience, I would want to protect other females from my offender. That's what I would want. That is what I want. That is one of the reasons, not the main one but one of them, that I reported my rapist and my daughter's as well.

So, that's my stance. Pick holes in it. I respect everything you said, totally. And I completely and utterly understand your point of view. But given what you've written, I want to be fair to myself here and clarify my approach to reporting offenders to police.

I understand what you are saying but you have to be very very careful here. What you are saying could come across as you are better, superior, stronger, because you chose to report and for your daughter. You arent. I do think you are brave and admirable but it still wasnt necessarily the 'right' decision - its just a choice you made - but its not in any way morally superior to someone who in your position who wouldnt go ahead.

I recently supported a 14 year old girl who, because she was sexually active already, and had 'dressed provocatively, and acted provocatively' did not have the support of teachers, her own father and the police. She had tried to commit suicide and fortunately failed. She did not want to report, and as her SW I completely supported her. She would have been eaten alive and it would have retraumatised her. You may have a good support network/better mental health or a whole host of other reasons why your choice was your choice. But you arent' better for going ahead.

Personally I wouldn't report because I had a psychotic break several years ago, caused by a court case, and I will do NOTHING to risk my mental health otherwise I wont be here. That decision is right for me and for my children and family who love me. Thats not an inferior decision to yours. Its not my job or any womans job to flag up a danger to society, to be part of the
'female collective' to protect other females from their offender - that then leads to a risk to her mental wellbeing. Please dont ever repeat your views to other rape survivors - or publicly because there are many many of us who dont share so you wouldnt even know. I am very sure you mean well, and you deserve to feel proud and brave of what you have done to be able to go through to conviction - Im so sorry to both you and your daughter and pleased you haven't been crushed by the process and had a good outcome. But your way is absolutely not right for others, and you arent better because you protected other women. Rape survivors are dealing with enough - as you well know - they dont need that on their shoulders too.

Its not your place to suggest anything.

It is very much about evidence and how it would be perceived by CPS.
I read this as OP trying to protect her friend from the difficult process ahead if she presses charges.
RC will advise.

I read the word "borderline" to refer to the kind of case that the police/CPS would actually investigate and prosecute. Mind you it is probably inaccurate in that context too as it seems clear even in cases with far less borderline evidence the CPS find it difficult to prosecute.

OP, I think all you can do is listen while your friend makes her own decision.

I would not report a rape in these circumstances. Actually the Belfast rape trial convinced me that there are very few circumstances in which I would report a rape. I wouldn't want to subject myself to another trauma from the system - because that is undoubtedly what I would get. My choice.

Totally agree

bigkahunaburger

You're really judging me harshly and insinuating that I feel superior to others. You couldn't have it more wrong.
You do you. And I'll do me. Never will we see eye to eye on our approach to rape. I don't agree with your stance at all but who the fuck am I to disagree with what is, for you, absolutely and fundamentally the right choice? I don't agree. But I wholly support you and your stance. So, I walk with you.

If you could see me, the shell of a human that I am, the sorrow that weighs me down, the suicidal thoughts I battle daily- in other words if you knew me- you'd be a lot nicer about me.

I don't think I am better than anyone.
I think I'm pretty fucking worthless, as a matter of fact, and I hope I don't have to live too a long life because I've suffered a lot in this one. I just want to get my youngest to adulthood and then I'll be good to go.
But I do want to think I've done something, small as it is, to help my daughter, help myself, and help other women, during my time here. That matters to me. I haven't done a lot. But I will repeat my experience, even if the likes of you, a Social Worker no less, try to silence me and tell me not to share my experience. How would you like it if I suggested the same to you? You wouldn't like it and hopefully, you wouldn't listen to me suggest you silence yourself.
Share your story.
I'll share mine.
Women will make their own choices that work for them, not for you or for me. But our opposing experiences need to be shared. What happened to you matters. What happened to me matters. What happened to the 14 year old you know matters. What happened to my now 14 year old daughter matters.
And when you tell me not to share my story, you are also silencing my daughter.
It worries me that you're a social worker, if I am honest.
We have been absolutely crushed by the process. You don't know me so you don't know, do you? But yeah, fucking crushed by the assaults on our bodies and the legal process that forces females to wander through a forest of systemic misogyny and perpetual abusive behaviour by men and women locked into that system; a system that forces the victim to fight harder and speak louder than the perpetrator. But why should we lie down in silence? Maybe I am built different than you and the fight was essential for me for different reasons. I don't know. I'd do it again because, at the heart of it, it was one of the ways I could rage and set fire to the world in ways that staying silent wouldn't allow me to.
Each to their own.