TW: Child abuse... I don't know how to feel or what to do

[user4362325920]

Have name changed because this is so outing. I feel like I can't talk to my friends about this, although some do know the basics, and I can't talk to family because everyone is biased. I'm so confused and conflicted and don't know how to feel.

My older brother (50s) has had two step daughters since the girls were very young, about 3 and 5 or so. Split with their mother 5 years ago but no animosity between them really, no cheating etc. Brother has a real temper and I think this contributed but I don't think there was domestic violence or anything like that. He can, however, also be a very lovely and caring person too, so it's not like he's always this angry ogre character.

The girls are now late teens and have both recently made allegations about my brother, saying he touched them inappropriately when they were about 7 until around 12. The police have said that as there is no evidence they cannot charge. I believe the girls as they have no reason to lie, and having spoken to them in person about this (we are actually quite close), they seem genuine. The allegations are quite 'mild' as these types of allegations go. I don't know if that's the right word but I don't know how to describe them. They include things like back and stomach rubs under clothes, that sometimes would include the top of the bum; and games that meant them undoing his shirt buttons and trouser zip. It was accompanied by inappropriate comments too. I think a lot of it doesn't necessarily sound that bad in isolation but I think every girl or woman knows when something is really off but we can't exactly categorise what is so bad about it.

I have not spoken to my brother since this came out about 6 months ago. Not a word. Family is split over this and it's causing big problems. I was full of disgust and wanted nothing to do with him at first but as time goes on I'm struggling with guilty feelings. He is quite unwell and probably doesn't have more than a decade at absolute most so that is contributing to these feelings. I feel like it would almost be better if the allegations were more serious- then I'd feel more black and white about it all. At the moment I find myself questioning whether innocent things were misconstrued. I find myself wondering if so many men of that generation are creepy that he almost couldn't help it. It's so impossibly difficult when it's your own family and you don't know what to do and what's right.

I'm not really sure what my AIBU is- maybe am I unreasonable to freeze him out completely? I've also stopped my son seeing him, even though they were very close, and I know he finds this hard. Mostly I just needed to talk about it, and it feels better to do so anonymously.

They probably misunderstood the voting options as you clarified later and people may have voted off the original post.

As well as how you feel (fwiw I think you're right to never see or speak to him again) I think you should put serious consideration into not only how your nieces feel about him, but how they would feel if you maintain contact with him, effectively dismissing the trauma he's visited upon them.

They would likely feel utterly betrayed, and in your position my focus would be entirely on supporting them and causing no further distress, rather than making any allowances for your brother or making life any easier for anyone that wants to brush any aspect of this under the carpet.

God what an awful situation to be in. I mean you'd have to think if it was your daughters what would you do?? Who's to say there aren't more girls out there too. I couldn't ever look him in the eye again xx

I ended my marriage before Christmas for very similar reasons. My DD told me that my soon to be ExH, her stepdad, touched her bottom when he was drunk and on a separate occasion he rubbed her thigh. On the surface it does not sound ‘serious’ but it made her feel uncomfortable and that was enough. I understand your dilemma though, I loved my husband but my daughter never did. She tolerated him at best. He denied it ever happened … but I believed her. It’s like you said why would she make it up? We’d been together for seven years. I could never trust him around my children and I’d feel the same about your brother.

I'm so sorry that you are dealing with this - it's very hard to find out someone you love has done something so terrible. It's a dreadful shock and tears families apart.

His stepdaughters have been incredibly brave to disclose what he did to them. Don't minimise his actions - what he did was sexual abuse of children. It wasn't accidental or misconstrued - it was abusing those little girls for his own sexual satisfaction. It's horrific and your subconscious is telling you this (feeling sick at the thought of seeing him, anxious dreams about him) even though you are feeling confused and trying to find other explanations.

I think you could have some counselling to help you deal with this. Being able to talk in a non judgemental space would probably really help you.

You say that out of your family, you've reacted most strongly in that you both believe the girls and also see it as very bad, where others either don't believe it or don't see it as so bad.

None of them can tell you how to feel. Your reaction is from your gut. It might change over time, for example you might not want to see or speak to him for some time, but you might feel you should see him or want to talk to him one day. He is still your brother after all. But if for now the thought of seeing him is horrible, I think you just have to be firm with those around you in that this is where you're at, at the moment.

I already posted, but if you're confused, what is the answer to my question I posed.... what could have been the innocent explanation for little girls unzipping your brother's fly?

I’ve had a similar situation in my family - different relative and we don’t know the extent of what he did, but I 100% believe it happened.

Cut off, no second thought. There’s no coming back from that type of abuse, IMO. I also cut off people who suspected but stayed quiet.

Ok just to make things easier

Back rubbing - COULD be innocent as you mentioned that he did this to you and you did not feel uncomfortable.

Touching belly through clothing - definitely over familiar, inappropriate and uncomfortable behaviour. Not 100 percent necessarily sexual, but probably...

Touching bum through clothing - unequivocally sexual and deeply inappropriate. Potentially very traumatic for girls and imo sexual assault

Games that involve them 'undoing his shihich shirt and his trouser zip' - absolutely zero grey area here. Full on sexual abuse

Very few people are 'all bad' which is why we find it so hard to be black and white in how we compartmentalise people we know. When we have seen our loved ones/friends be good/kind/gentle etc and then we find out that they have done something really heinous, it's really REALLY difficult to change the way we feel about them. It isn't always the 'instant revulsion' that would make things much easier.

Allow yourself to feel how you feel without judgement. In your shoes, i would tell the girls that I believe and support them, and then would have a single conversation with my brother along the lines of "I believe the girls. I am struggling to reconcile this to the brother I know and love, but I support them. I cannot have a relationship with you now and I don't know if I can in the future. In the. meantime, I hope you get help and therapy and above all, own your behaviour and apologise to those girls and their mother, who now have to live with the trauma and confusion of what you did."

And whether I had a relationship with my brother in the future would depend very much on what he does next and, frankly, how I feel in the future. Don't put any pressure on yourself to feel a certain way.

Your family's feelings are just that - their individual feelings. You can't change how they feel (there are always those who just cannot accept that someone they love would do such a thing) so you again, have to be clear - 'this is the path I am choosing. Do not judge me. And if you want to have a relationship with DB, that is your choice, but do not expect us to share the same space right now. This may change in the future, but not now'.

It's a horrible situation.

Undoing trousers zip - super serious and no grey area.
Have you ever undone your dad's trouser zip?
The thought makes me sick.

Think about what your brother must have been doing during/soon after this bum rubbing and trouser zip undoing?

The rubbing the back and tummy , from what you have said , obviously dont know the girls experience. But that sounds innocent? I do that to my children sweetly to get tbem to sleep. . The pulling down the trousers zip is extremely bizarre and not normal. Depends what other ' mild' touching was involved. Inappropriate comments too is vile towards children by a grown manwhos supposed to be a step parent. I wouldn't feel guilty about cutting someone off family or not , 10 years to live or not that had somehow even mildly made Inappropriate sexual comments or 'mild' touching.

My mum says he has a weird sense of humour and would have just found it funny (he'd hidden a chocolate bar there). I know it sounds so weird as an outsider- I can totally see it- but it feels different when it's you and your family. I mean my reaction to him will, I'm pretty sure, remain one of disgust and I plan to continue being NC, it's just my guilt I'm trying to assuage by discussing it here.

Only you can decide what’s right for you. Ten years is a pretty long time to have left so I don’t think you need to make a drastic decision.

Thank you, this helps. I may write it all down to him before blocking him on everything (I cannot face dialogue) but I know that 1) everything I say will be passed on to the family members on his side and 2) I feel like it will somehow be twisted by them to make it sound like I'm so cruel and unreasonable and manipulative or something. I don't know. To add to the complexity of it all I have some weird desire to be approved of and loved by him even though I am furious and disgusted. But writing it down is definitely something I will really consider.

It could be much, much less and I have been told of recent big scares. I think I'm worried I'll get a phone call he's dead and regret my actions.

You are minimising. The accusations are serious. He’s a disgusting nonce, I would cut him off totally if I were you.

I think your priority should be supporting the girls. Which you would be unable to do if you speak to your brother.

You’re right to sever ties. His actions may have been ‘relatively’ mild but you don’t know what more he would have attempted if he thought he would definitely get away with it. You should realise that he’s had completely inappropriate thoughts about young children and judge him accordingly. His attitude to children is not a protective one but a somewhat predatory one. He didn’t do what was in the best interests of those children, he instead transgressed the boundaries of a proper relationship and has to some extent used those children for his own gratification. This is unacceptable - even if he’s your brother I’m afraid.

I have to say I agree with this tbh.

I have some professional experience in this area and there must have been more to it than a belly rub over the top of clothing. Most parents would be locked up if that were the case.

What your nieces have disclosed is abuse no maybe, could it be. Just because it doesn’t involve actual intercourse or touching willies (it may have involved that though you might not know) it is abuse if it makes the child uncomfortable. And makes anyone hearing think No absolutely No! I would be supporting the girls and no contact TBH.

@Willyoujustbequiet another one with professional experience saying that that sentence wasn't for a belly rub over clothing.

Oh gosh, no, that's fucked up.
I get that it might feel complicated when it's your family, but maybe try imagining this is NOT your brother, that it was some rando or even the girl's school/sport teacher... what would be your reaction?

As someone who was a victim of CSA, I can tell you that if you continue any kind of relationship with him, it will be hurting these girls so incredibly deeply.

I’m not the poster but I think what they’re trying to say is there was a case involving various offences including marital rape AND inappropriate touching of children? So the 14 years was also for marital rape.

My friend was raped as a pre-teen and her accuser plead guilty and was jailed for 6 years although I guess he would’ve got more time had he pled “not guilty’ . So yes I do agree the touching alone wouldn’t get you 14 years.

What an awful and difficult situation for you. The allegations sound 100% true. Most allegations of sexual abuse are. Those that are not would be more full on, more obvious sexual touching, or at least exposure. Accusers don’t ’think’ up making children undoe a man’s shirt and the zip of his pants without a physical sexual assault. Asking them to do that was obviously sexual in that context, as is a back rub that goes down to the higher part of the buttocks.

I can’t suggest what you do about your own contact with your brother. If your son is a child, then he certainly shouldn’t have any unsupervised contact with him (but I’m sure you know that). If he is a young adult, it might be best to allow him to make his own decision having had a full explanation of the allegations.

At the moment I find myself questioning whether innocent things were misconstrued.

And what would be the innocent reason for a man to be rubbing young girls under their clothes and getting them to unzip his pants while making inappropriate comments? 🤔