To think it’s not normal for kids to fight like this?

[Kanfuzed123]

Double posted for traffic and also because I feel a bit desperate. They are 5 and 3 but it’s been that way since they were 2 and 4. Eldest is a girl and the youngest is a boy. Neither are asd, sen or have any form of additional needs. They are both in school/ nursery.

youngest was handsy for a brief period of time and now plays nicely with friends.
BUT at home, 8/10 times, the second your back is turned, or even if you’re in the room, they are all on each other scrapping. Most of the time, it’s youngest jumping on and generally rough housing with eldest. I can tell his intention isn’t to hurt, he knows he shouldn’t do it as well. It’s like he’s play fighting, which she doesn’t like and then it degenerates. I can tell he’s not doing it with anger or the intention to hurt because on the occasion she winds him up or hits him, you can see it on his face when he goes to hit her back.
this morning, I couldn’t even go to the loo, wash the dishes for separating them.
i remove him and remind him he’s a kind boy, and kind boys listen when someone says stop, and kind boys use kind hands and gentle actions. Etc. It’s made some impact but what else can I do?
honestly this morning has really worn my patience and I had to shout very loudly to get the behaviour to stop. Then I’m racked with guilt for being shouty.
do I have unrealistic expectations that I can leave a room for 5 mins and they’ll not be at each others throats?

how can I stop this?

Hmmm. Different siblings have different dynamics. My boy/girl twins fight very frequently when together. I also have to shout because they escalate to absolute peak hysteria when fighting together and cannot hear or acknowledge anything other than themselves and each other. Sounds like your boy is getting a reaction from his sister which he enjoys. It’s difficult to stop that because it requires her to completely ignore him, which is unrealistic to expect a 5yr old to do.

The only way to nip in the bud is they are doing separate things. Clearly they can not get along so you will need to plan things for them to do to keep them busy.
Opposite ends of the table, sofa. They may just need their own space. Are you a lone parent?

Sounds horrendous. First thought is, is he getting enough rough play? Eg from his dad? I have 2 boys and it seems to be a really important part of their play. Never vicious though. But I can understand if he has this pent up energy and he’s only 3 or whatever, then it could easily turn aggressive.

Second thought, how can you know no SEN at such a young age?

Third thought, SEN doesn’t really mean anything as many SEN children are as gentle as they come, and aggression would still be an issue even if SEN were present.

I have 4 kids and my youngest 2 fight constantly it’s horrific. Funnily enough it’s my older two who are autistic that don’t fight at all so not sure that’s got anything to do with it? They very much keep to themselves, I was told my son obviously isn’t getting enough attention that’s why he fights with his sister so much which is not true he gets plenty of attention still fights relentless

hes not got a diagnosis and I have specifically asked at his nursery due to his behaviour.

i know it’s common for some SEN children to physically lash out when over stimulated that’s why I mentioned it

Structure it so they can’t. Basically your younger child is teasing and tormenting the older one. He needs to be kept apart when they aren’t supervised. He needs to know that he’s staying with mummy while she gets dressed to big sis can eat her breakfast/get dressed/wait til it’s time to go in peace.

Mentioned as I know some SEN children can physically lash out if over stimulated that’s why I mentioned it.

That’s all children especially at those ages

And keep him busy. Give him tasks, games, activities- helping mummy wash the veg etc.

Encourage DD to chill in her room, and he is ABSOLUTELY NOT- allowed to go in there.

I think rough play is the issue though. His dad and him rough house all the time and i think he’s getting too enthused by that and replicating it

As per first reply. Different dc are different, and different families and sibling relationships are different.
My older two used to physically fight quite a lot. They are very close friends, as adults, but still not beyond wrestling occasionally.

My two were exactly the same. Literally couldn’t be in the same room together at all. They are best pals (with the odd epic fight) now though

Mine physically fight when they’re bored. It’s weird, it’s like a form of entertainment. They also verbally wind each other up when they’re bored. It’s exhausting, I don’t know how to solve it as boredom is part of life and I can’t be providing them with constant ‘fun’ to stop them arguing! Sorry not to be able to help, but just putting ‘boredom’ out there as a potential trigger!

i remove him and remind him he’s a kind boy, and kind boys listen when someone says stop, and kind boys use kind hands and gentle actions. Etc. It’s made some impact but what else can I do?

This isn’t working. Because - to put it bluntly - he’s now obviously not trying to be a kind boy and is trying to wind up his sister. (This is the sort of behaviour that has gone on for time immemorial, that said! This is kids!) So I would just take a firmer, no nonsense approach- along the lines of “I know what you’re doing - stop it or there will be consequences”. And then follow through on that. I’m sure he’ll soon get the message that it’s not worth the flak. (Same with your DD if she’s the one causing the fights, of course).

we did the consequences method before and it worked even less, I don’t think he could quite grasp it. We tried the reminders based on the advice or his nursery which they said has worked there for him and the other kids. But he’s not physical with the other children it’s more he’s a wind up merchant and doesn’t really listen which he’s like at home too and the method has helped to an extent because he’s less intense with it than he used to be.

but what sort of consequences would you recommend? Time out / in didn’t really work because he’d just fight against us and it was a battle of will

I think that’s part of it, when they are out and about they don’t fight, they play beautifully.

they do sometimes at home too but then one has something the other wants and then chaos ensues

Stop with all the waffle about kind boys and kind hands - a 3 year old doesn't have the capacity to assimilate verbal information. A simple 'no hitting' and remove him from the situation is enough. Make him come to the kitchen or bathroom or wherever you are if he won't leave his sister alone. Don't encourage rough housing and play fighting with DH either, it's giving your little one mixed messages.

i don’t really let her play upstairs alone if we’re downstairs and if I’m upstairs I can’t really stop him from going in her room, they don’t have locks and if I’m trying to do something like put the clothes away I’d just have to be constantly removing him

Yeah I think it’s mixed messaging on the rough play. He doesn’t understand the distinction.

In really basic terms does that mean I have to bring him to the toilet with me, and lock him in?

and with house work, I think the only way to keep him there would be a screen or else he just tear up the rooms I’m trying to clean.

it seems abnormal that they can’t be left unsupervised

You need to stamp on it hard.

The older one needs to stop winding the little one up and the younger has to be told firmly no hitting or fighting.

A very firm sharp ‘NO’ EVERY time and separated and sent to a different part of the room plus lots of praise for good behaviour and positive reinforcement.

Try to facilitate short bouts of nice play between them then praise them and reward them when it goes well.

There needs to be value in behaving nicely and treating each other well.

I’ve seen so many parents not deal with this sort of stuff and it escalates and ruins the potential of a good relationship during childhood.

I am talking from experience in my own childhood. My own children are unusual and literally never fight but both have ASD so their interactions are atypical.

it seems abnormal that they can’t be left unsupervised

It is but until they have secure boundaries they cannot.

You need an activity that will give him the stimulation he needs without involving his sister.

I spent hours - and I mean hours - freezing in parks to let the kids run about. We also have a swing ball now they are older. Climbing, swinging, hitting, running. Any of that you can facilitate at home?? Easier in the summer, I know.

We have a one of those little tykes climbing frames and a playhouse and a kids basketball hoop, our garden isn’t large so we’re limited on space and we make more use of it in the summer but when it’s cold they play for a little bit and then want to come back in, traipsing dirt inside and then I have to clean which I can’t do, because then they don’t have 100% focus and then they start

I think it might be the rough playing with DH that's encouraging this behaviour. Am not saying there's anything wrong with it, but a friend of ours used to pop over for a cuppa and he was really tough and tumble with the kids. I noticed after he had gone the kids were quite wound up