To think it’s not normal for kids to fight like this?

[Kanfuzed123]

Double posted for traffic and also because I feel a bit desperate. They are 5 and 3 but it’s been that way since they were 2 and 4. Eldest is a girl and the youngest is a boy. Neither are asd, sen or have any form of additional needs. They are both in school/ nursery.

youngest was handsy for a brief period of time and now plays nicely with friends.
BUT at home, 8/10 times, the second your back is turned, or even if you’re in the room, they are all on each other scrapping. Most of the time, it’s youngest jumping on and generally rough housing with eldest. I can tell his intention isn’t to hurt, he knows he shouldn’t do it as well. It’s like he’s play fighting, which she doesn’t like and then it degenerates. I can tell he’s not doing it with anger or the intention to hurt because on the occasion she winds him up or hits him, you can see it on his face when he goes to hit her back.
this morning, I couldn’t even go to the loo, wash the dishes for separating them.
i remove him and remind him he’s a kind boy, and kind boys listen when someone says stop, and kind boys use kind hands and gentle actions. Etc. It’s made some impact but what else can I do?
honestly this morning has really worn my patience and I had to shout very loudly to get the behaviour to stop. Then I’m racked with guilt for being shouty.
do I have unrealistic expectations that I can leave a room for 5 mins and they’ll not be at each others throats?

how can I stop this?

To me it sounds like you're just making to many excuses...

"If I do XYZ it'll mean I have to spend my time constantly stopping him" So keep constantly stopping him. He needs to learn.

"If I put him in time out it's just a battle of wills".....of course it is, but you're the parent, you're in charge, and so YOU need to be winning that battle. Dont bail just because it's difficult. If he knows you'll keel then he'll carry on battling until you do.

It sounds like you're just finding it too much like hard work controlling his behaviour. Its hard. It's difficult. But you need to him to know he can't just do what HE wants, else you're going to have an absolute arsehole on your hands in 10 years time.

I’ve read a battle of wills like when the child is melting down and crying is pretty bad if you’re trying to relay a message . I’ve found that if I sternly do time out and time to think, he just runs back, same if I sit with him. And then I keep on physically getting him and carrying him back he’d become more and more upset, I’d have to physically restrain him, and that doesn’t sit right with me. I found removing him and sitting with him talking to him means he doesn’t escalate. But then it’s maybe too soft, but I feel like anything that’s making him frantic isn’t really going to be helpful to him learning because he’s going to be getting more and more worked up.

I will try giving them tasks when I’m doing houses work and simply then The longer it takes then we don’t get to go anywhere special that day because our chores took longer

Same applies.
Most 5 yr olds need someone to tidy u p with them.

It’s still like pulling teeth, she’ll lie on the ground and say she’s too exhausted to move her arms sometimes or fake an injury.

younger brother however is pretty good at tidying up, I can put a timer on and the tidy up song and he’ll have tidied up his toys

Mine are 11, 9 and 6, and honestly they are still like this now. I can’t get anything done without them fighting (mainly down to the 6 year old, he is full of beans all the time and just wants his sisters to play/react to him so he winds them up). Literally by the time I’m sat down for a wee they’re screaming at each other!! None of mine have ever played in their rooms upstairs either, even though I have reassured them the others are not allowed in their personal space. It’s like they want to be together all the time but also can’t stand each other 😂. I’ve just introduced a new rule where if anyone says the word ‘stop’ then the other must immediately stop what they’re doing (as it can be hard for the youngest to understand when his sisters are play fighting or actually not interested and retaliating because they want him to leave them alone). If it doesn’t stop immediately then there’s a consequence (5 mins time out or whatever).

When he was 3 i genuinely would take him to the toilet with me and lock him in to protect the girls, but then he was also a runner/climber so god knows what he would get up to if left alone!

I've got AuDHD twin girls (combined ADHD, so next level hyperactivity!) and I never 'rough-housed' with either, but I did have an indoor trampoline, pull up bar with swing/ladder/rings/rope attachments (I think it was called a Gorilla indoor gym) and gymnastics bar so they could keep active whenever needed over the years (to compensate for my physical disabilities, lockdown, our tiny back yard etc). I bought them a punch bag recently, as it has helped reduce twin 1's angry outbursts.
I was very firm around no hitting, although of course it's happened over the years.
I dunno, but maybe because I've always found different outlets for their energy and never made a game of fighting, maybe that's why they've never scrapped.
I'm probably firmer than a lot of parents, but I've never found the "kind girls use kind hands" (slightly feeble imo) stance has worked with my 2.

You're still making excuses!

You're trying to teach him consequences. Of course he'll cry and try to run off, because he didn't want those consequences. He's throwing a tantrum and kicking off and he'll continue to do that until you break it. Your method of dealing with it means the time out itself doesn't escalate, but it's not working in preventing the original behaviour is it?

If the kids needing supervision and control when you're doing your chores means you don't all get to go out and do special things one day.....well that's a perfect consequence! "Now kids, you messed about so much and caused so much trouble when Mummy was trying to dust that we now don't have time to go to the play centre"...next day "Remember yesterday when we couldn't go to the play centre? Well today if you behave and help Mummy with the dusting then we get to go out and do something special".

I don’t agree with a PP about the meltdowns. They don’t learn from or during meltdowns. Keep things calm, reduce the stress don’t ramp it up. Deescalate. Remove him from the incident and do something else. Talk about how to behave before things happen not after.

I used to prime mine ahead of whatever wa happening. “Right, we’re having a Disney film on, you are going to snuggle up with your cushion and have a rest while you’re watching. Stay calm and When Song X comes on, I’ll bring you some popcorn”

I do not agree with the first part, he’s too young to have that level of self awareness and reasoning. He’ll be in fight or flight mode. He’s just turned 3.

youre second point, is literally what I just said in the comment you quoted

Yes I agree with the first part, I’ve read it too, some part of their brain is activated during this moments which make an objective learning from the situation impossible

Just let get on with it. It’s what kids do. They’ll learn one way or another.

Apologies, I read it that you were more bothered about losing your day out rather than seeing it as a suitable consequence.