To think it’s not normal for kids to fight like this?

[Kanfuzed123]

Double posted for traffic and also because I feel a bit desperate. They are 5 and 3 but it’s been that way since they were 2 and 4. Eldest is a girl and the youngest is a boy. Neither are asd, sen or have any form of additional needs. They are both in school/ nursery.

youngest was handsy for a brief period of time and now plays nicely with friends.
BUT at home, 8/10 times, the second your back is turned, or even if you’re in the room, they are all on each other scrapping. Most of the time, it’s youngest jumping on and generally rough housing with eldest. I can tell his intention isn’t to hurt, he knows he shouldn’t do it as well. It’s like he’s play fighting, which she doesn’t like and then it degenerates. I can tell he’s not doing it with anger or the intention to hurt because on the occasion she winds him up or hits him, you can see it on his face when he goes to hit her back.
this morning, I couldn’t even go to the loo, wash the dishes for separating them.
i remove him and remind him he’s a kind boy, and kind boys listen when someone says stop, and kind boys use kind hands and gentle actions. Etc. It’s made some impact but what else can I do?
honestly this morning has really worn my patience and I had to shout very loudly to get the behaviour to stop. Then I’m racked with guilt for being shouty.
do I have unrealistic expectations that I can leave a room for 5 mins and they’ll not be at each others throats?

how can I stop this?

My b/g twins used to be like this. Absolutely horrendous, nothing I could do to stop them! Luckily the passing of time happened, and it faded out around 4.5/5ish. They’ll still have the odd scrap, but nothing like it was and it’s mainly for fun. Not terribly helpful of me I know…!

Stopping him winding up his sister is more important than housework if any kind. He’s at a stage. You need to work through it, the same way you did potty training.
It will repay the time and effort many times over.

Also teach your DD skills to nip it in the bud too, and back her up. So she holds her hand out and shouts STOP, with a scowly face. You immediately pop up and remove him, unless he’s already backed off.

I had the same problem. I do understand. Mine (adults) are awesome friends now, from stalwart enemies.

Yeah I think so too, and he’s stopped now, but I don’t know how to undo it because he obviously associates this with a barrel of laughs, plus he’s a wind up merchant in general so he does things to be funny.

but as a character he’s more obstinate and more prone to melt downs than his sister she was easier to redirect and calm down

We’ll try this.

she normally get wound up and pinches his face

I used to barrel in in support of my poor little baby, until I walked past the room and saw baby ds2 standing in front of the tv, looking over his shoulder and waggling his nappy clad bottom at DS1 who was just trying to watch a programme. Little wind up merchant, he was.

So it’s probably a kind of attention seeking because he loves DD and wants her to play with him. If she knows that’s why he’s doing it she’ll be more patient, and he’ll learn better ways to get attention.

Mine were the same at that age (same age gap & girl/ boy combo) I remember thinking that it was just non-stop winding each other up and constant fighting. It got much easier as they got older and the physical fighting stopped once my son realised he was much stronger than his big sister. They are young adults now and are really good friends. Hang in there.

He’s absolutely obsessed with her and loves the bones of her, she’s the first person he asks about in the morning and the last person he wants to see before he goes to sleep.

You’ve done well to spot the dynamic. Most important step!

He’s after attention! That’s perfectly normal at 3. if you had two boys (I do) the elder would probably be fine rough housing. Your daughter isn’t. You need to protect her.
i would take my younger one to the loo with me if I knew he’d wind up my eldest. Had a long time when this was the case. My eldest always has a safe space in his room when ds2 is being annoying. I’m not sure why a five year old can’t play alone in her room if she wants to.

I have 2 sons, 13 and 11 and a daughter who is 8 and they cannot keep their hands off each other, constantly wrestling about together and have done for as long as I can remember. They love it and are all equally invested in the antics.

They never deliberately hurt each other but it usually ends with my daughter crying but she is still always up for it the next time. I just leave them too it as they are having fun and off a screen 🤣. I keep on wondering when they will give it up as the 13 year old is definitely getting too big for it!

she can, if she’s upstairs with us but I’ve never really sent her up to play alone when we’re downstairs nor has she asked to. Most of her toys are downstairs. We had to remove all big shapes (doll house and kitchen) because she was getting nightmares from the shadows

Would you ask her preference? She’s old enough to understand that she can take a toy to her room for a bit of time without her brother. I’m not suggesting banishment. Just that offering her this option might be kind or start a useful conversation. She might prefer to be with her brother and be harassed!

I have 2 boys now 9 and 6 and we've been through lots.

So 2 things :

I would ensure they are out of the house ideally for a walk, local playground by 11am at the very latest. I find that helped enormously.

I reiterated 1000 times, no heads and no stomach, which they still adhere to 99.9%
Of the time and understand how that can be very Serious. This means I don't feel quite as activated when they fight as I would imagine damaged kidneys etc. I explained why to them with honesty ie importance of organs and the brain which helped them To understand.

In all honesty it's hard - I just would take one upstairs with me when I was doing something upstairs as
They really could t be left alone together
And I think we are still in it unfortunately but my eldest is v reactive.

I just made she my husband
And I had time out and recovery from the day.

In all honestly my 83 year old dad pointed out in the old days children, especially boys were
Controlled by violence and beatings into submissive behaviour. Quite rightly and thankfully we don't do that anymore but it does make things more challenging as the fighting still Continues.

Genuinely exercise or outdoors (in the morning) was the only way for me for a few years.

Good luck - it's hard !

Get rid of screens and encourage them to help with the housework. There are lots of things they can do.

They can pair the socks while you fold the laundry, they can clear the table while you wash up, they can dust while you hoover etc. Get them working together as a team. "Can you two finish your job before mummy finishes hers?"

If you need to go to the toilets set a task that will keep them busy for a few minutes (can you clean all the door handles/light switches/skirting boards? I get my 4 year old to do these things regularly, not because I have high standards for my light switches, but because it is a task that requires zero supervision and if he is busy doing that he isn't busy bringing chaos to another area of the house!

This is what I had to do with mine at one point. “If you can’t be trusted to play nicely when I’m not there then you’ll need to be where I am so I can watch you. We’ll try again in a few minutes.” At times he was literally made to hold my hand while I “dusted” with the other!

Yes it’s annoying, yes you get less done, but that’s how it is. Mine learnt fairly quickly that it was extremely boring and stopped being a pita to their sibling. They were probably closer to age four or five though - at two and three they have limited impulse control and you might just have to constantly supervise.

We also spent minimal time in the house - didn’t care about cleaning or whatever, we went out. Anywhere.

they only really have them when we’re going on a plane. But the tasks and jobs for them It just doesn’t work with them, the eldest is terrible she’ll just sit there and do nothing. The youngest will tidy up but if it’s faced with some clothes or something he’ll start chucking them everywhere. Believe me, I’ve tried.

my eldest is terrible she’ll tidy if you do it with or, or basically if there’s a threat but otherwise she just won’t. We’ve tried it with tidying up toys because they are both terrible for tearing apart a room.

That’s what it will have to be I think. I find mess and dirt quite triggering but I suppose I need to loosen up a bit!

I brainwashed mine a bit. When youngest was born they "brought a present" (Peppa pig books, it didn't break the bank!) All kind interactions rewarded with attention and positive praise. If eldest said before dinner "can u have a yoghurt" I'd say no, wait for dinner. If eldest said "can me and dc2 have a yoghurt" I'd say yes. I didn't tell them I was doing that or turn a no to a yes. Just a sort of love bombing (with a good motive!)
The other thing I have always done is separate time with a parent. Luckily they both love an activity the other hates so no jealousy about the actual activity. And they each know that their turn will come.
My husband has scars from fighting with his brother so was keen not to repeat that (they get on well in adulthood after a few wilderness years in late teens / early 20s).
The important thing with wind up merchants is not to reward the behaviour with attention. Heap attention on the other one at that point!

my eldest is terrible she’ll tidy if you do it with or, or basically if there’s a threat but otherwise she just won’t.

Well, she's 5. That doesn't make her "terrible", it makes her a typical child.

This, and your other comment about not being able to leave them unsupervised, suggests to me you are expecting a bit much from them.

We have 4 (now adults). The eldest and second fought loads, as did second and third. Third and fourth got on a treat and still do. When everyone was at home there was usually somebody arguing, winding somebody up or fighting. Exhausting but it does pass.

I meant terrible at tidying not in general

took me a while to understand your comment but I get what you mean now, real positive incentives to harmonious behaviour.

my eldest you told her no once, explained it was dangerous and she’d never do it again, but this lad had a knack for anything that can hurt him too. He’s got ants in his pants. I’ll try this too!

I agree with the posters saying that, at the moment, they need to be supervised and that means you can't get on with the housework unless one or both of them is with you. Mine went through a phase like this when I couldn't leave them together, I had to be close by or DC3 would hit DC2. It's really irritating, hopefully it won't last too long, but for the moment that's how it is.

Fwiw I agree with you the rough play is the problem and not the solution. Everyone I know with a dad who does this with a boy has ended up with a boy who is very physical in their play and other children don’t always like it. So no immediate solutions but cutting down on it might help.