To think the call back into the office is an example of the patriarchy very much alive and well?

[Yestttlo]

And anyone who thinks otherwise is either brainwashed by the patriarchy or isn’t a mother with a huge proportion of child related responsibility on her shoulders? (Or someone who is in a job where they can’t work from home so don’t want to support other women having the right to).

I have worked from home since covid. Been in the office eight times where it was necessary, for instance a company away day or face to face client meeting. I have a young dc and the call back to the office will damage my career progression due to time spent travelling which means I can’t be online longer and because I will be stretched to get household stuff done .. no I don’t mean I clean the toilets during work hours but that I can put a wash on first thing and know I can unload it at lunch, or get cooking done for the evening during my lunch break which means my evening is not chaotic and I can actually rest a little before starting in full force again the next day.

I will be fighting it to the very end. I will make my views clear. I strongly believe that forcing people into offices hugely disproportionately affects women. My work can be done anywhere. Forcing back into offices is a neon sign that the patriarchy is alive and well. Thoughts?

It is, I really feel for people starting out on their careers in the current climate. People have become incredibly selfish, they don’t see themselves as part of a work community, where knowledge and experience is shared.

I disagree. I work home home, DH doesn’t. DH assumes I have loads of time for all the chores. Don’t get me wrong I have benefited from WFH as a parent and I am a massive advocate of flexible working, however I really don’t think it’s as simple as that.

Also one of the people I manage is a nightmare for disappearing off the face of the earth when working from home so I do understand how frustrated employers get.

@Yestttlo It doesn't show that the patriarchy is alive and well, but it does show that wealthy mumsnetters who do office jobs are out of touch with the fact that the majority of manual jobs are done by men, and that it's impossible for these jobs to be done at home.

How do you think your medicines, cleaning products, computers, and food are made? Do you think they are made in people's homes?

I think if your job can be easily replaced by someone else who is willing to work in office then the only choice is to look for another job.

I remember customer services during lockdown was terrible, calls keep getting disconnected mysteriously (possibly bad internet connection). Waiting time was long, you can never speak to anyone who can help, just generally really really poor service.

My work still have half of the staff wfh but customer services are the ones who has to be in the office every day since we all know it makes a difference to pur customers.

Tat kind of thing is nuts. I think a lot of employers are now seeing the effects of creating office environments that are really unpleasant.

It's not like people need fancy gyms and a TV break room and stuff. But they do need a reasonably peaceful environment, a place that feels calm, where they aren't living in a box. where they have a space they can use and can have a good workplace routine. I think all these things go a huge way to improving productivity.

Men don't wash clothes? Do you think that men have their clothes magically fly into the washing machine by themselves?

There are many other jobs that are predominately done by women that can't be WFH, social care, nursing, teaching I could go on... yes I can see why some people see it as a luxury that does not mean it should be an option.. I say this as one of those whose job means I can't WFH.

You just have to sort out child care if you want to work when your kids aren’t at school. The reason people are being called back to the office is not a patriarchal conspiracy. It’s because people working from home often take the piss.

It is immaterial why it was set up , in the real world most people would rather work 9-5 ( or thereabouts) and that is when they want majority are online and meetings are held . It’s also when nurseries are open , most childminders work and coincides with the school day for the most part .

Same as what we do. I actually prefer the office, my DH prefers home but we both do both based on the needs of our family and what we have on.

Managing a large team I see all sides of this and think that the biggest key to it all is having flexibility, within reason.

I’m a mother and I work for a hybrid company. I get that working from home makes home life easier for lots of people, but purely working from home isn’t great for lots of teams for collaboration, learning from others and therefore job progression. The people in our work who get the promotions and bigger pay rises are the people who go into the office a few days each week. Not because they are present in the office as such, but because they benefit from the learning, conversations, collaboration and informal team discussions that wouldn’t happen working from home.

Completely disagree with this and I think you completely missed the point of fighting the patriarchy - what you’re suggesting is optimal for you is actually the opposite of fighting the patriarchy.

Here is what I think you need to lean in to: that you prefer working from home (for whatever reason - mental health, additional sleep time etc) and that you are okay with the fact you’re the designated person who makes lunches and does the washing. That is okay and a choice many women make - I totally get why. But to dress this up as men are controlling us by not letting us stay at home is bonkers. You are happy with your situation so just say you’re annoyed at your employer for disrupting your equilibrium at home.

By the way this is coming from someone who was in an Exec level role, has a disability and wasn’t able to go to the office for 18 months because my anxiety was crippling and my health was failing. I felt the pressure hugely to go in and I fought with everyone who told me (like you are doing on this forum) people should be in the office and that WFH was sciving BUT it’s because I was completely insecure about my own personal situation and that was masking the reality of the benefits of WFH/Hybrid/vs full time

Spoiler alert: I was sacked. You mention money isn’t an issue - good luck. I was £50k in legal fees. Unless you have a contract that states you are remote, this is a battle you will not win no matter how much money you throw at it. Take my word for it and save your cash. If money is no problem like you say then give it a go for a laugh.

Now that I’m out of work and unemployed and am not entrenched in a bias view about WFH, I can 1) see it is impossible to be fully remote and be in a senior role unless the entire company is; 2) see how much development my team missed out on me not being there and 3) how much development, network and shoulder rubbing I missed. If this had happened earlier in my career there’s no chance I’d have gotten promoted WFH full time.

So fight for your position for your own personal circumstances and acknowledge your biases (you’ve countered everyone who has made an opposing view to yours so maybe take the time to read through and consider others points of view) but don’t claim it’s to fight the patriarchy on our behalf. Women should be seen; not encouraged or enabled to be hidden away if we are trying to progress careers for women and working mums. Btw my husband can’t work from home and is away 3-4 nights a week and does all the washing. It just sits and waits until he gets home.

And if you’re rich then you don’t need to worry about working. Enjoy putting your feet up and save yourself the stress ;)

And if he is required to go back to the office it won't be because of the patriarchy!

This only affects women disproportionately if you’ve allowed the woman to take on a disproportionate role in the home.

My boss is a dad, works from the office most days by choice, does almost of all the school pick ups and drop offs and would describe himself as the primary parent. But he only has half the work to do as his wife does the other half while she also works out of the home (in a job where WFH is not possible). He would openly say that he prefers having 7 hours in disturbed in the office and that gives him the best chance to further his career and be a present parent while he’s at home.

My husband does 90% of the household tasks, while I have the higher paid job. Me being called back into the office 3 days a week has had very little impact on our lives as I’m not the main homemaker.

You really need to look harder at why so much of the weight of home life is on your shoulders given you’re also working.

edit on reflection, I think working from home actually supports the patriarchy. I’m a woman in a senior role and I would not have been able to build my career how I have with the required networks and profile if I had been WFH full time. Given that women who can WFH and who have a greater role in childcare and home life are less inclined to come into the office, they would be missing opportunities their male counterparts (who don’t have the same childcare burden) are getting every day and would inevitably fall behind in their career.

See my other comment - he has been required to go back for silly petty reasons and it's failed big time as they have moved to smaller offices and they now don't have the desk space to have everyone back!! So it's not happening....They now look so stupid!!

Working in the office is important because you are visible. I have always had flexible working, from well before COVID, and if you are out of sight you are out of mind. I made a conscious decision to go in 3-4 days a week and it makes a massive difference to your opportunities and perceived commitment. It is also mostly men that are present while many of the women continue to stay at home. Guess what - when promotions come round, or good projects, or funding comes along, its always the people in the office getting picked, not the ones putting in a laundry or picking up the kids from school.

You shouldn't be picking children up from school when you're being paid to work. That's what wrap around clubs are for.

Our company is going back into the office 3 days a week now, and eventually will progress to a full week. Our CEO and our executive team are mainly women, ranging in age from early 40s into early 60s. We have 3000 employees spread around the country.

I can wfh, as my job requires me to travel all over the country so when I'm not travelling I can wfh, I still go to an office as much as possible though as I want to see people regularly that I am not related to and it's important for career progression.

Maybe YOUR employer is all crusty old men, but don't paint all employers with the same brush.

I became a widow in 2018 and wfh has allowed me to work
and look after my bereaved children . There was no way my kids were going to cope with going to after school clubs or me coming home late due ,to their trauma at their loss. Even now as teenagers they fully benefit from me being at home at the end of the school day. So all these comments about why can’t the dad shove a wash in some of us don’t have that luxury and I would have lost everything if I had to work in the office.

@Yestttlo yes I agree. I have an amazing work life balance because I WFH. My commuting time is effectively repurposed to household chores and is the only reason full time work is feasible.
I do however respect that working together has benefits and my team and I do work at least a day per week in the office. It’s really tough, I benefit from WFH, but mental health and work benefit from office days. It has to be blended working I think.

I agree @Mrsttcno1

I do think that there are good reasons why some people find wfh to be more productive - eg less interruptions, but arguing for wfh on feminist grounds so that you can do more than 50% of the chores and childcare because your dh can't wfh seems somewhat ironic.

Perfect example of why the country is so fked. Get back in the office where work belongs.

Yep because everyone works in an office!!! 😆

get over yourself im replying to the OP

This.

I also thought wfh would be a winner in terms of being able to stick a wash on/save the commute time,
but like others increasingly feel it’s a lose/lose situation rather than a win/win.

it makes us invisible at work, and leaves us taken for granted at home (‘fitting in’ jobs while working).

I cannot see how spending more time in the office will harm your career. I can see how being full time wfh could harm your career though - unfortunately the risk of becoming "invisible" or overlooked is a real risk, especially for women.

You're also approaching this "battle" through your own (probably privileged?) lens. Do you live in a nice house with a nice partner? Are you at risk of domestic abuse in your home? Are you frightened by your neighbours? For some women, their workplace is a refuge. For some women who live alone, it can be a lifeline against loneliness and isolation.

Hybrid working is best for businesses and employers.

Aside from encouraging collaboration and sharing ideas, best practice, supervision etc.,
many businesses own or lease large properties designed for accommodating their staff, they want those premises being used as otherwise they're paying rent for empty buildings.

Also, you mention childcare - not all mothers need to consider this. Children grow up into teenagers who don't need walking to or picking up from school or wraparound care. Giving women more opportunities to spend time in the office.

There's a lot to be said for bringing employees back to the office - I do think hybrid works best.