Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Why do so many people criticise vegans?

921 replies

trunch · 09/01/2025 16:45

I'm a meat eater!

However, I don't understand why people criticise vegans so much.

They aren't hurting me and are trying to save animals and the environment.

What's wrong with that?

Surely people should be more critical of me because animals are killed for me to eat?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
socialdilemmawhattodo · 13/01/2025 22:25

HereForTheAnimals · 11/01/2025 23:36

I've faced more ridicule for being vegan than I did for being gay. Wtf is that all about? I'm not saying I haven't faced homophobia, but it pales into insignificance with the amount of jibes I've received about not wanting to continue to participate in the perpetual suffering of animals. Fancy that 😯

I've been a vegetarian and supporter for gay rights for nearly enough the same 40 years. But over the last 10 years I have had to put up with vegans telling me I am a murderer and worse for daring to want to continue to eat vegetarian food. Fuck off. And then that I should accept men into my female single sex spaces. Again fuck off.

So now I am absolutely politicised and will not give an inch. Because I have learned that militant-vegans and militant-trans campaigners don't give a stuff for anyone else's views. So well done - you have converted someone who 10 years ago was fairly easy come, easy go, into someone who will now carefully look at all perspectives and if doesn't help born-women and -children, and vegetarians (separately), wont agree. No jibes from me.

HereForTheAnimals · 13/01/2025 23:17

socialdilemmawhattodo · 13/01/2025 22:25

I've been a vegetarian and supporter for gay rights for nearly enough the same 40 years. But over the last 10 years I have had to put up with vegans telling me I am a murderer and worse for daring to want to continue to eat vegetarian food. Fuck off. And then that I should accept men into my female single sex spaces. Again fuck off.

So now I am absolutely politicised and will not give an inch. Because I have learned that militant-vegans and militant-trans campaigners don't give a stuff for anyone else's views. So well done - you have converted someone who 10 years ago was fairly easy come, easy go, into someone who will now carefully look at all perspectives and if doesn't help born-women and -children, and vegetarians (separately), wont agree. No jibes from me.

You have been a vegetarian for almost the entirety of my life, and I absolutely respect and applaud that, but for the record, I have never called anyone a murderer. I hate that animals suffer because of humans, but I also know that from the day we are weaned off our mother's milk, we are told that it is ok to then start drinking the milk of a different species. It's just something that has always been done, and so it is absolutely fine for it to continue, even though we now know that millions of dairy cattle will suffer as a consequence.

I will take any opportunity to talk to people about veganism, but it is when they start asking me about why I'm vegan. I try and do it in a reasoned and educational way, but I have fucked up before and lost my temper, especially when I realised that they are mocking me or being obtuse - I'm human too.

I wrote the comparison of me coming out and me being vegan because I genuinely have had more people mock me because I'm vegan - the OP, after all, asks why so many people criticise vegans. I was sharing my lived experience.

mathanxiety · 14/01/2025 01:04

TempestTost · 11/01/2025 23:56

Yes, this is just what I mean.

The idea that veganism is better environmentally is bollocks. It's possible at a scale that can actually feed people only in an industrial farming, monoculture, petroleum based agricultural model, and that's why it comes out a bit better than that same model with animals. Which is to say - neither efficient nor sustainable.

The most sustainable and efficient agricultural models are always mixed farming models - because farm ecosystems, like natural ecosystems, have the most synergies and interactions when they include both plants and animals, and once you seriously try to reduce reliance on petroleum animal power of one kind or another becomes important on a farm.

Even in the odd historical pocket of veganism - and they are vanishingly rare - you will find there were not vegan farmers. Veganism in these scenarios was a privileged position that depended on other people getting their hands dirty. Because farming with only vegetation isn't efficient without oil based fertilizers.

So no - not everyone "knows" that not eating meat is better for the environment.

As for killing - all of us, whatever we eat, survive because of, and are in fact physically constituted by, dead organisms. All the ecosystems that sustain us are made up of both plants and animals, and are dependent on those existing in a cycle of life and death. Populations in nature are not some idealistic pastoral situation where every animal dies of old age, quite the contrary, it has always been usual for large parts of animal populations to die young. Which in general is not more awful than the few who live to old age and die of starvation, exposure, or an overload of parasites. Animal husbandry, when done properly, does not offer a worse life than nature for animal populations. (Not to get into the fact that farming monocultures of plants are really really terrible for animal populations of all kinds.)

I would submit that it is much better to understand our place in these systems, our dependence on other life, and respect it and look at it clearly, as opposed to trying to fool ourselves into thinking we can somehow exist outside of them so we don't need to feel our intimate, and in fact visceral, connection to other life in a way that feels uncomfortable.

So again, the whole "aw, you know you would be so much nicer if you just let those farm animals live out their life at the animal rescue, you just won't admit it cause you like the taste" isn't something I recognize, and I actually think it's shallow when it comes down to it.

Excellent post.

We would do very well to look to the crop/fallow/grazing rotation farming of the past.

Sevenwondersofthewoo · 14/01/2025 09:26

you do know that the dead meat isn’t rotting as we wouldn’t be able to eat it. Remember this is the UK (for me) and we have laws to say so.

This is why everything is labelled so we go back to the source if there is problems.

My butcher is always a target and just gets on with it, he doesn’t say a word now. just cleans up the door and windows. He only got angry when they threw muck at his granddaughter. I was disgusted by this behaviour as there is no need.

For meat eaters and vegans we need the eco system for both because if left to all veg it’ll have to be domed so it can live and grow in the UK because of our weather or a change in weather that wasn’t predicted.

That takes up space, time and good fertiliser. Prices will go up and the population will not be able to eat. Oh wait just like now. Most food banks are long life and not fresh produce.

Plus food banks will have to have fridges or cool chillers unless ALL tinned. So a knock on effect again.

plus the ones that medically can’t eat a vegan diet they would become ill and die slowly and no not everyone can take supplements.

like I’ve said we can co exist together.

MeanWeedratStew · 14/01/2025 09:39

I mean, hearing excessively about anyone’s food choices is boring as fuck. Haven’t we all had to listen to a friend or colleague bang on about paleo or keto or carb-free or whatever the latest miracle diet is? It’s just tedious, and hearing about veganism vs meat-eating is no less so.

I get where vegans are coming from, but until plant-based alternatives start tasting good I just can’t get on board. Food is just too big a part of life, unfortunately.

roota · 14/01/2025 11:13

Sevenwondersofthewoo · 14/01/2025 09:26

you do know that the dead meat isn’t rotting as we wouldn’t be able to eat it. Remember this is the UK (for me) and we have laws to say so.

This is why everything is labelled so we go back to the source if there is problems.

My butcher is always a target and just gets on with it, he doesn’t say a word now. just cleans up the door and windows. He only got angry when they threw muck at his granddaughter. I was disgusted by this behaviour as there is no need.

For meat eaters and vegans we need the eco system for both because if left to all veg it’ll have to be domed so it can live and grow in the UK because of our weather or a change in weather that wasn’t predicted.

That takes up space, time and good fertiliser. Prices will go up and the population will not be able to eat. Oh wait just like now. Most food banks are long life and not fresh produce.

Plus food banks will have to have fridges or cool chillers unless ALL tinned. So a knock on effect again.

plus the ones that medically can’t eat a vegan diet they would become ill and die slowly and no not everyone can take supplements.

like I’ve said we can co exist together.

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2022/may/13/george-monbiot-vegan-planet-britain-farming-fuel-plant-based-food#:~:text=Not%20only%20do%20humans%20need,could%20feed%20200%20million%20people.

If the UK switched to a plant-based diet – and used regenerative farming to produce food on the arable land we have (not using artificial fertilisers or pesticides) – how much could we be self-sufficient in food, percentage-wise? dad_climate

The calculations that partly address it have been done by the author and small-scale dairy farmer Simon Fairlie, updating the earlier work of the ecologist Kenneth Mellanby.

We currently use 17.5m hectares of farmland in the UK. Fairlie finds that while a diet containing a moderate amount (less than we currently consume) of meat, dairy and eggs would require the use of 11m hectares of land (4m of which would be arable), a vegan diet would demand a total of just 3m. Not only do humans need no pasture, but we use grains and pulses more efficiently when we eat them ourselves.

This would enable more than 14m hectares of the land now used for farming to be set aside for nature.

Not to mention, there are plenty of safe vegan fertilisers that can be used.

George Monbiot: ‘On a vegan planet, Britain could feed 200 million people’

The author, Guardian columnist and environmental campaigner discusses how we can produce food more sustainably

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2022/may/13/george-monbiot-vegan-planet-britain-farming-fuel-plant-based-food#:~:text=Not%20only%20do%20humans%20need,could%20feed%20200%20million%20people.

roota · 14/01/2025 17:42

socialdilemmawhattodo · 13/01/2025 22:25

I've been a vegetarian and supporter for gay rights for nearly enough the same 40 years. But over the last 10 years I have had to put up with vegans telling me I am a murderer and worse for daring to want to continue to eat vegetarian food. Fuck off. And then that I should accept men into my female single sex spaces. Again fuck off.

So now I am absolutely politicised and will not give an inch. Because I have learned that militant-vegans and militant-trans campaigners don't give a stuff for anyone else's views. So well done - you have converted someone who 10 years ago was fairly easy come, easy go, into someone who will now carefully look at all perspectives and if doesn't help born-women and -children, and vegetarians (separately), wont agree. No jibes from me.

So you're determined to blame and judge all vegans based on your experience, plus happy shoehorn in different ideologies in together (that have nothing to do with each other) to "prove" your point. Not least shoehorning in sexuality and gender as if vegans are a homogenous groupthinking mass? Complete rubbish. What's that got to do with this? Vegans have different lives, different opinions FGS.

So you think it's ok to attack and brand all vegans, because some, at some point disagreed with you?

This kind of comment once again (as many times on this thread) reminds me of the frothing at the mouth culture war diatribe on the Daily Mail comments section.

roota · 14/01/2025 17:48

Earthling Ed posted this on Instagram the other day. I think it speaks well to the original post question:

"Over the past few years there has been a concerted pushback against veganism. This pushback has often involved unsubstantiated and unfair criticisms based on faulty logic and poor science.

However, rather than viewing this pushback negatively, it’s important to remind ourselves that the pushback exists precisely because of the progress that veganism has made.

Simply put, irrespective of sensationalist media headlines and pseudoscientific social media content, the progress that veganism has been making isn’t going to stop."

Why do so many people criticise vegans?
malificent7 · 14/01/2025 17:49

Ex vegan here. I expect people hated me as I turned into a sanctimonious bore and eating became a chore rather than fun.
I now eat everything. I admit that animals are not treated well in our society and veganism is better for the planet but i do think we have evolved as hunters and need that ooomph that meat gives us.
I have several other friends who were vegan but ate meat again after becoming deficient in ooomph and vital nutrients later in life.
Plus...cheese! Yes zi know it's fermented cattle breast milk but...yum!

malificent7 · 14/01/2025 17:58

From my expwrience here on earth, I don't tjink that killing to eat is evil...we are animals. I do think that industrial farming could be kinder but evil...no.
Animals live by survival of the fittest and eat each other. That is nature.

TempestTost · 14/01/2025 18:17

Merryberrypie · 13/01/2025 22:10

@TempestTost not so. Did you read section that stated “Avoiding consumption of animal products delivers far better environmental benefits than trying to purchase sustainable meat and dairy.”

Do you understand that this study doesn't actually understand what is even meant by sustainable farming, or how to look at it and compare?

This should be evident when you look at some of the things they consider, like water consumption. Water consumption only matters sometimes. It matters in California, or Israel, because there is little water there. It matters when a factory farm puts animal effluent or chemical fertilzers in your river. What often doesn't matter is how much a cow in the UK drinks. And it really doesn't matter how much rain falls on the grass that the cows eat.

Studies like this don't look at the way mixed farms create important synergies,contribute their labour, use "waste" products in productive ways, or increase habitat for wildlife. They also don't look at soil health which is crucial. They don't look at how important grass and pasture management is on a mixed farm and how it contributes to the long term viability of the soil.

Unless they talk about such things, they are useless.

TempestTost · 14/01/2025 18:23

Gorge Monbiot is such a twat.

He actually discovered himself that sustainable mixed farming is a better choice, and tried it. But it made him feel uncomfortable, so he went back to being a vegetarian (fine if he likes) and started claiming that anyone who wasn't was anti-environmental (not fine as he knew the data.)

He does what makes him feel virtuous.

MistyF · 14/01/2025 18:27

trunch · 09/01/2025 16:45

I'm a meat eater!

However, I don't understand why people criticise vegans so much.

They aren't hurting me and are trying to save animals and the environment.

What's wrong with that?

Surely people should be more critical of me because animals are killed for me to eat?

A large number of milk farms shut down few years back near me (I'm not from UK). Production of milk took a nose dive, but production of meat (veal and export of older beef) actually was raised slightly.
When I mention to one vegan that there's no shelter to non-working milk cows, she just said that she doesn't care and that milk industry should stop existing anyways, because she's against cows 'working' for humans.
That's just one vegan, but if we all stopped eating meat and milk, these farm animals won't exist. That would be worse for me.

I eat milk and meat, but I also love vegetables. I would hate being vegan, because I just don't want to eat copius amount of beans. Which I probably would, because being vegan means you need to plan your meals and actually be careful you get enough of proteins in your diet.

roota · 14/01/2025 18:29

TempestTost · 14/01/2025 18:23

Gorge Monbiot is such a twat.

He actually discovered himself that sustainable mixed farming is a better choice, and tried it. But it made him feel uncomfortable, so he went back to being a vegetarian (fine if he likes) and started claiming that anyone who wasn't was anti-environmental (not fine as he knew the data.)

He does what makes him feel virtuous.

The largest scientific study of its kind (as referenced above several times) says going vegan is the single biggest thing anyone can do to support the environment.

Oxford Uni study. Which you've conveniently ignored!

Sevenwondersofthewoo · 14/01/2025 18:57

@roota i see you conveniently ignored the rest of my post

I’ll say it again

we can co exist together

you are no better then me and I’m no better than you.

You’re still shoving your veganism at me which I can’t eat and I’m not alone in that. it’s not like I can pop a supplement

oh as for the study I actually don’t believe in them why cos they are there for an agenda all skewed in favour of the outcomes in what has been studied, its a bit like the history books a lot of it is missing and I mean a lot.

pinkyredrose · 14/01/2025 19:27

roota · 14/01/2025 18:29

The largest scientific study of its kind (as referenced above several times) says going vegan is the single biggest thing anyone can do to support the environment.

Oxford Uni study. Which you've conveniently ignored!

I think not having children supports the environment more but veganism is right up there too.

pinkyredrose · 14/01/2025 19:30

but if we all stopped eating meat and milk, these farm animals won't exist. That would be worse for me.

How would animals not being bred for meat be worse for you? Cows, sheep and pigs etc will still exist, they just won't be farmed.

Sevenwondersofthewoo · 14/01/2025 19:53

pinkyredrose · 14/01/2025 19:30

but if we all stopped eating meat and milk, these farm animals won't exist. That would be worse for me.

How would animals not being bred for meat be worse for you? Cows, sheep and pigs etc will still exist, they just won't be farmed.

Maybe medical perchance

Merryberrypie · 14/01/2025 20:41

A kilogram of beef = 40.7kg of co2 on average for locally grown beef, 60.0kg of c02 on average for imported beef.

A kilogram of dried beans = 1.2kg of c02 from locally grown dried beans, 2.0kg co2 from imported dried beans.

That includes transport, processing, waste disposal, cooking, the lot.

A vegan has between half the c02 imprint(if eating processed foods and avocado etc) and 1/7 of the co2 imprint(if eating whole foods) of a meat eater consuming a single portion of meat per day.

This is also a great unbiased resource... https://ourworldindata.org/environmental-impacts-of-food#the-carbon-footprint-of-eu-diets-where-do-emissions-come-from

Even if we went against all the science and believed being vegan would have zero effect on environment, health etc (positive or otherwise) I would 100% still be Vegan, why? ETHICS.

I can of course relate to how some meat eaters feel because before I went vegan I'd find myself trying to think of "loopholes" so I could keep eating animals. Breaking lifelong habits may not be easy and not everyone possesses the ability to have empathy. However, I eventually realised that the best way to reduce animal suffering is to stop regarding them as food / clothing etc

Environmental Impacts of Food Production

What are the environmental impacts of food production? How do we reduce the impacts of agriculture on the environment?

https://ourworldindata.org/environmental-impacts-of-food#the-carbon-footprint-of-eu-diets-where-do-emissions-come-from

Sevenwondersofthewoo · 14/01/2025 20:58

Still banging on I see @Merryberrypie

so you don’t want to co exist you just want to push your agenda onto others , again acting superior.

NoWordForFluffy · 14/01/2025 21:01

Nobody needs 'loopholes' to eat meat. They just need to either eat meat or not. Whether they find it easy to give up or not isn't a loophole, it's a willpower (and maybe a cooking skill) issue.

Merryberrypie · 14/01/2025 21:11

Sevenwondersofthewoo · 14/01/2025 20:58

Still banging on I see @Merryberrypie

so you don’t want to co exist you just want to push your agenda onto others , again acting superior.

Oh dear. Pot. Kettle. Black.

Sevenwondersofthewoo · 14/01/2025 21:33

Merryberrypie · 14/01/2025 21:11

Oh dear. Pot. Kettle. Black.

Fair enough

but we can co exist

InveterateWineDrinker · 15/01/2025 11:26

Most meat eaters I know, myself included, would accept an invitation to sit down for a vegan meal with vegans. We have vegan friends and have happily accepted invitations to dinners, events, and so on because we've wanted to share time with them. Others might moan inwardly and mentally schedule a McDonald's stop afterwards but would still grin and bear it.

However I have never, ever, met a vegan who has condescended to eat meat in order to accept someone else's hospitality. Some would make a point of turning up, starving themselves, and sanctimoniously letting everyone know about it. I know a few who would actually turn down an invitation simply if meat was being served, even if they had been offered a vegan option - it happened at my wedding.

The 'breaking of bread' - sharing food communally - is a basic, fundamental building block in all civilised societies. You might not like what's on offer. You might genuinely struggle with intolerance or allergies (I'm lactose intolerant and my wife has a nut allergy, so many veggie/vegan menus are difficult for us, but we manage around it). But anyone who turns it down outright because they don't agree with what's on offer, whether they've been offered a suitable alternative or not, is actually just fucking rude.

redboxer321 · 15/01/2025 12:32

InveterateWineDrinker · 15/01/2025 11:26

Most meat eaters I know, myself included, would accept an invitation to sit down for a vegan meal with vegans. We have vegan friends and have happily accepted invitations to dinners, events, and so on because we've wanted to share time with them. Others might moan inwardly and mentally schedule a McDonald's stop afterwards but would still grin and bear it.

However I have never, ever, met a vegan who has condescended to eat meat in order to accept someone else's hospitality. Some would make a point of turning up, starving themselves, and sanctimoniously letting everyone know about it. I know a few who would actually turn down an invitation simply if meat was being served, even if they had been offered a vegan option - it happened at my wedding.

The 'breaking of bread' - sharing food communally - is a basic, fundamental building block in all civilised societies. You might not like what's on offer. You might genuinely struggle with intolerance or allergies (I'm lactose intolerant and my wife has a nut allergy, so many veggie/vegan menus are difficult for us, but we manage around it). But anyone who turns it down outright because they don't agree with what's on offer, whether they've been offered a suitable alternative or not, is actually just fucking rude.

Bit early to have started on the wine isn't it?