Male staff in nursery’s

[Itsoneofthose]

Ok, hear me out.. I know this is controversial but today I was shown around a nursery for the first time. I’m dreading leaving my little one, only because I’ll miss her and worry about her. I don’t think my worry is out of proportion or anything like that though. But today I saw two male nursery nurses. Now, I know there are many men who are great with kids, and not all men are a threat to children (obviously) and women can also potentially pose a threat to children but I just don’t know how I feel about male nursery staff. Hmmm. I know I’ll be shot down in flames for this. Nursery’s are well regulated etc etc. I just can’t help feeling a bit uneasy about the whole thing. Has anyone else experienced these thoughts? AIBU

'any man who wants to work with young children must be a nonce'

Nobody is saying that at all. Far from it.
You really need to hone your comprehension skills.
If you want a discussion with me about it, go back and read my comments so you actually understand where my understanding comes from.

This.

How can we possibly argue women are equal when significant numbers of people think there is at least one job that is overwhelmingly more suitable for women.

By definition if women are overwhelmingly better at childcare that leaves men over represented in other roles - like errrr, CEOs and STEM roles.

I also think that saying women are better, by nature, in one role is tacitly accepting that men might be better by nature in another role.

But nobody is arguing that men and women are equal in all roles? Are we?

I can't see how you can be equal without being equal at everything.

We are not equal - neither physically or mentally. Horses for courses. Women are better at some things and men are better at other things. It pains me to say this, as a woman, but the example of inequality that hurts the most (because I play chess) is that we are nowhere near as good as men at chess. And one can't dismiss it by saying that 'women were not conditioned to play chess historically' because for the past 60 years some Eastern block countries ran live-in chess schools for girls with very poor results.

OK, that logically stacks up, fair enough.

But equally (I am going to be slayed for this on MN) I think that female surgeons (especially gynaecological and all other surgeons, apart from ortho) are much superior to male ones. I have no proper data to back it up, like with the chess example, only hearsay from my friends who work in the field (impartial as they are in NHS management, not surgeons themselves). And this is despite historical denial of opportunity and training and relative novelty of their employment.

Here it is! (With an added detail showing off the car😂)
Your problem is not men in nurseries.
Is anything you perceive as being a man or a woman's role.

Go tell your male private driver to drop you home (which in this case a 2 million mansion), ask your female nanny to get the kids ready...and tell your male gardener to have a day off cause it's so cold not fair to be tidying up the gardens.🙄

You do know women abuse children too, don't you. Perhaps in lesser numbers, but you still don't know when you'll come across a 'wrong' un'

This thread is discussing the risk of men in childcare

Unless OP has edited something it was NEVER about just sexual abuse ffs

Of course.

But risk assessment is about statistics, evidence, probability, likelihood, preventative measures, avoidance and good practice.

This really isn't rocket science, nor is it sexism or inequality.

It's evidence-based common sense.

And evidence shows that, in a care setting, women are more likely to physically, mentally and emotionally abuse their charges

Which means that any RA needs to take in to account the harm that can be caused by leaving them with a woman too

Because they are also a threat to children

ODFOD

Really?

evidence shows that, in a care setting, women are more likely to physically, mentally and emotionally abuse their charges

Can you link to that evidence you are citing please Martin?

There are many perfectly sound female nursery workers
But the possibility of a "wrong un" female worker coming across your child isn't 0% and the worst tragic outcome would be the death of your child. It could also be the physical or mental disabling of them.

So, to use your terrible analogy, it's liking placing the worlds most precious gemstone in a room full of people who say they are gemstone experts and the police but definitely includes a number of thieves who blend in completely but at any time could just walk off with the gem and it would never be seen again

It's been linked SEVERAL TIMES in this thread already

No, it really hasn't.

I've looked.

I can see a few news stories you have put links up to about women who have been abusive in childcare settings, but no statistical evidence that women are more harmful to children than men in childcare settings.
It's a false claim - you can't back it up because it's not true.

There are however huge number of links to stories and statistical evidence about sexual abuse perpetrated by men.

Statistics:
ONS data here
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/bulletins/sexualoffencesinenglandandwalesoverview/march2022
MoJ data here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/ministry-of-justice/about/statistics

Stories
Nursery worker jailed for sex offences, Crowborough:
^https://www.sussex.police.uk/news/sussex/news/court-results/nursery-worker-jailed-for-child-sex-offences-in-crowborough/^. 
Man jailed for sex offences at nursery
^https://www.staffordshire.police.uk/news/staffordshire/news/2024/april/man-jailed-for-sexual-offences-at-nursery/^
18-year-old male nursery worker jailed for rape and sexual assault in nursery:
^https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-57943692^
Paedophile male nursery worker jailed for sexual assault and indecent images of children
^https://www.richmondshiretoday.co.uk/nursery-worker-jailed-for-sexual-assault-on-toddler/^
Australian childcare worker charged with sex abuse of 91 children
Those are just the first few that come up on the first page with a single google search. If I changed the search terms I’d find others. The only female nursery workers guilty of sexual assault of children in their charge that I can see are Sophie Elms and Vanessa George, 2019 and 2009.

But that doesn’t mean all men in childcare settings are abusive, does it?

Sorry I think the tone has been lost on you. I have exaggerated the car to symbolise how precious a child is.. not show off wealth 😂🤦🏻‍♀️ it’s called an analogy. sorry that you didn’t get it. And no I wish it were as simple as being about roles, but no.

If it was truly about evidence based common sense, no woman would ever procreate and live with a man, though, would she, as most abuse of children is perpetrated by a family member.

Hold on. This is a very silly argument. We’re talking about systemic inequalities that arise because some things are assumed to be ‘women’s work’ and some ‘men’s work’ . And the women’s work is invariably lower status and less well paid than the men’s work. And this has very little to do with the acknowledged AVERAGE physical differences between men and women.

We can’t insist that there is 50/50 representation in physical labouring jobs, for example. But we should be able to say that any woman who has the physical ability to match the minimum required for the job and wants to do it should not be rejected because of the prejudicial belief that women are not as strong as men and therefore unsuited for jobs as physical labourers simply because of their sex.

We can’t make all women as good at chess as all men. As it’s a minority activity that people choose to learn, we can’t even be sure that women in general are not as good at chess as men in general. The residential chess schools in some Eastern bloc countries would not pass as a sample. All we can do is make sure that the women who want to play chess and turn out to be good at it are able to compete on a level playing field with other good chess players, whatever their age, sex, ethnicity or any other characteristic that people may have prejudices about but in no way affects their actual individual ability to play chess.

We should not stop men who choose to go into caring jobs working in nurseries because of a load of silly prejudices about women being better and more natural carers, and men who want to be carers only really wanting access to small children so that they can abuse them while changing their nappies.

I think a bloke working in a very female dominated environment generally does it because they're really motivated and they tend to be excellent. DH is a TA but works across school from nursery to y6. He is well regarded by his colleagues and parents. He is also an excellent, hands on father

I work in paediatric services. The guys we have working for us (very much a minority) are outstanding and get something different out of the kids we work with compared to female staff. All our blokes are young and one has children.

UABvvU

Of course not. But there are definitely some men in childcare settings that are going to sexually abuse children.
The parent is not present and cannot protect the pre-school child.

I didn't say that you personally said that - or indeed that anybody used those exact words.

But you must have been reading a different thread from me if you really haven't noticed people very strongly hinting at that. Maybe they didn't have the courage of their convictions to come out and confidently state their beliefs?

What other objection could they have otherwise, purely based on the sex of the childcare worker? If it's just about their competence at the job or mannerisms, nobody could know about those on first glance.

Many mother's are very aware of the risks of family members and are protective of their children around all men, family and non-family.

I was very vigilant but did not express this to my child in a way that would harm their relationships with their grandfather, uncles, friends of the family. They are all very close now, but I was still ultra vigilant.

The difference between home and pre-school is that the mother is not present to protect the child. A 1,2,3 year old child is not yet equipped with the language to tell their parent if something happened. Indeed - a preschool child may be unaware if, for example, photos had been taken whilst they were being changed.