What should school for ND kids look like? AIBU to suggest that a one size fits all is wrong?

[Jadebanditchillipepper]

As above really. Do you think that the current school system is right for all children? Particularly those children with SEN.

I have three children. DC 2 and 3 are both neurodiverse and school in it's present form has been at best - not meeting their needs and a worst, harmful to both of them.

The eldest of the two is now 18. They have never been happy in school. They were bullied in primary school and then in secondary school, just had no friends, hated school and were just miserable. When I spoke to the school they weren't interested - as long as they behaved and did reasonably well in school, the fact that they were unhappy didn't matter.....

Eventually, when they started to refuse to go to school, I demanded a meeting. When I suggested that DC2 might be Neurodiverse, they laughed at me. So we moved to a different school who were more switched on.

Initially, DC2 did well, but then there were problems with bullying etc again. Limped through GCSEs and eventually ended up in a small independent school for A levels.

DC3 who is also AuDHD has gone to the same school DC2 did GCSEs in. Struggled in year 7 - reasonable adjustments put in place so managed year 7. Year 8 - total disaster - reasonable adjustments completely ignored. struggling to attend school October/November. School Finally agreed to reduced timetable end of November and now managing to attend 3 lessons (out of 5) per day.

Why don't schools recognise that every child is different and that some need adjustments?

I agree one size doesn’t fit all and as there are so many ND children, you would think there would be an alternative that suits their needs, rather than having them struggle in mainstream.

I suppose lack of funding is the main barrier but I do think something should be done to help these children along and make school a happier place for them to thrive.

I often wonder the same.

Of course if you have kids with significantly different needs it won't be suitable for all.

Classrooms with 20 or more children need to have certain things in place just to be able to meet the general needs of the fairly typical kids in the class. They need to be relatively peaceful, orderly, have suitable curricula, the kids need to be broadly in the same place academically, among other things.

Lots of schools can barely manage this, and in fact don't manage it. Many kids find the classes too chaotic, or the academic expectations are inappropriate. Children who are not broadly in the same place academically, either ahead or behind, also aren't well served.

That being the case, yes, kids with more complex needs will struggle in many cases too.

That’s not particularly revelatory, is it? Everyone knows one size doesn’t fit all. How to do it within the constraints of staffing and finances is the unsolvable bit.

You say your children were not happy in school as they could not make friends. Schools have a limited ability to help with this.

You are not wrong but I think “Why don't schools recognise that every child is different and that some need adjustments?” is an unfair statement

Have you ever worked in a school?!? I’m a teacher I have 20 plus kids who all need my attention and love and the black and white of my job description is to have kids learning the curriculum I can’t constantly give my attention to 2-3 kids or I am failing the rest of the students

so yes the current system doesn’t work but saying schools don’t understand isn’t the answer - schools need more funding for teachers aides or educational assistants or less students in each room

Last year, 11 of the children in my class had some sort of neurodiversity. This presented in 11 different ways, and academic ability ranged from 3 years below expected level to 3 years above expected level. This is alongside the diverse needs of my neurotypical children, who also ranged in ability from below to above expected curriculum level. I haven't even mentioned social or communication ability! One thing that almost all my ND children have in common is difficulty working independently - this means I can't set either my very low or my very high level learners off doing something meaningful while I put my attention elsewhere. All of them needed me to guide and support them almost all the time. I want to do my very best for every child in my class but I am stretched so thin. Nothing can prepare you for the level of dependence and ADHD-like behaviours present in the average classroom these days.

I think lots of little schools with smaller classes would work better for all children. I don’t think anyone thrives being in a sea of humanity.

I think at a basic level, streaming doesn't work. Certainly not past the age of about 13, and that's just for kids within the normal spectrum socially, medically, and academically.

There are a ton of kids not well served by the model in use now. It's by no means just kids with particular academic struggles like dyslexia, or behaviour struggles, or even physical struggles. So many children who don't qualify for any additional support, because they are completely normal, struggle with the classroom environment, struggle to make friends, or struggle with the work.

And while I don't want to be dismissive, because the problems ND kids have are as real as any, no one is offering those other kids anything either.

A lot of NT children don't thrive. It's not only ND children struggling. But most spot light on these.

I had the same experience. As he wasn’t violent, he got very little specific support. He’s doing much better at college.

They don’t help because of a lack of resources and because there’s always someone whose case is more urgent. Not being violent kept him bottom of the priority list which I understand to some extent but it’s hard not to think what if?

I don’t know anyone who thinks that one size fits all but I can see why the school system has evolved that way. The ideal is that state education is the same wherever you live but the purpose of UK education is to have children create results that politicians can pat themselves on the back for. It’s designed so kids can progress to the next stage of education then become taxpayers.

I agree - this issue doesn’t affect just ND children - there are many children with lots of challenges. I know plenty of NT children that needed support - either speech and language therapy or even pastoral support. There are so many elements that makes a child vulnerable. When it comes to school, the main issue is that it caters for those who are academic only. I remember needing so much support as a child for different reasons (although I may be ND - people have always assumed I am), I was given extra help in primary school - I was OK in secondary but overtime I’ve realised I’m pretty academic - so I could blah my way through but definitely needed more attention. My ex however didn’t thrive at all in school - but enjoyed some of the alternative learning courses that were available after college/uni.

I believe schools need more breakouts. When I was younger we had about 3 TAs that would take children with different needs out of the classroom and we would learn the same thing (the aim is always to complete some sort of exam) but for our ability.

Today, with so many children needing extra support alongside the cuts to resources - parents are almost asking for their child to have 121 support (I’ve seen this happen where the school haven’t provided and the parent has to push). This is a big ask - we need money going into the schools to support this and hire. The ideal would be a plan for each child made in collaboration with some sort of support staff and parent. I say this as a parent that has had to work with teachers when my DD has needed support - but we have had to find methods that involve including her in the class (NT but has had different issues ). A friend with a ND child said that her son was significantly better when he had a support staff that checked in on him every couple of days (he had terrible behaviour, throwing furniture around, very scary stuff - which eased with the right support).

Something needs to change as school is for all - it’s not fair if someone is academic and they are not challenged - equally if someone needs more time Time understand something, they should be supported.

I agree but as previous posters say it is very hard with current funding models. I'm often on my own with 29 children (one with very high needs and very volatile with a 1:1 who mainly has to work outside the classroom). Some of these children are ND and some have other SEN needs. Lots of them have different support plans and adjustments. It is very very hard to facilitate all of these and remember them when you are teaching on your own.

Most schools don't have budgets for separate classroom TAs any more. Any adult support is accounted for from EHCP funding which never pays for a full person so schools are cobbling together support for the children who have EHCPs.

It is in no way ideal but also money isn't infinite and in some cases, not all, parents of both NT and ND children expect teachers and schools to basically parent for them and solve all their issues out of school as well. Or they want 1:1 support for a child who doesn't have any funding.

Most teachers I've worked with do an amazing job with quite little. Educational standards in this country have risen massively and expectations of attainment are really high (too high for some children really). Practice has moved on loads in the 15 years I've been in schools and now is more inclusive.

The level.of need does seem to be getting much worse so I think there must be external factors affecting the number of children we now see who struggle to cope in a classroom. Not entirely sure what they are though.

One size doesn't perfectly fit all but it also isn't realistic to think that each child can have a school perfectly tailored to their needs and wants.

Even if funding increased significantly, a medium sized town cannot support different schools specialised in every different permutation of particular needs so there will always be some element of having to provide what is best overall for a group of children, not each individual.

Also, life isn't perfectly tailored to everyone's own needs and wants so at some point, most people have to learn to adapt to get along in the workplace and in society. Of course, some people will never be able to do so and they need support but for many people, they are going to have to and school is a place also to learn that, in a supportive way.

Sorry, I have been working so didn't come back any earlier.

Please be assured that I am not blaming individual teachers - I know that teachers are doing their absolute best in a shit system - It's the system that needs to change. Also, I shouldn't have just included ND kids in my title, because most kids with SEN are not getting the support they require.

There are main stream schools. Then there are special schools for children with severe disabilities - there is almost nothing in between - I know some areas of the UK have specialist autism schools, but they are not widespread.

I do not think my statement "Why don't schools recognise that every child is different and some children need adjustments" is unfair though - It's completely true, but I do recognise that individual teachers are mostly doing their best in an underfunded and under-resourced system

Also, life isn't perfectly tailored to everyone's own needs and wants so at some point, most people have to learn to adapt to get along in the workplace and in society.

This is true, but there is a lot more flexibility in what you do / how you choose to work when you’re out of the school environment. For instance, I WFH the majority of the time and mainly “talk” to colleagues via IM. I’ve not sure this adjustment would be available in schools.

We need to bring back more special schools, or at least ‘special classes’ within mainstream schools. Absolute madness to expect ND children to just slot in to mainstream classes amongst 29 other children, and to expect teachers to be able to handle that.

More special schools specialising in a variety of different needs.

The cost would be enormous

It's also the conflicting needs of so many children with their individual requirements.

We had inset training on ND this week, specifically looking at ASD. The suggested strategies were helpful but assumed each classroom had one or two SEN learners. We have 6-8 in most classes. A child who needs a very calm environment to thrive has needs which conflict with the child who needs movement breaks and fidget toys, but they are forced to share a classroom. The child who needs visuals to comprehend instructions has a need which conflicts with a child who needs the classroom/board to be uncluttered and simple/text only. I cannot create multiple classrooms in the same room!

In our area, even those children who have been awarded a special school place may well not be going to a special school until 2027!

These 'disabled' people are often hugely intelligent and able in different ways. They are capable of having full and productive lives, just not crammed into noisy, automated, one-size-fits-all environments.
I have a nephew who is ND. Had a nervous breakdown at 20after not coping at university. As part of his recovery, he moved to a rural area, got away from crowds and noise & traffic, took a job working in conservation, developed his skills and now in his 40s has his own successful business. Doesn't see too many people in his day but that suits him.Has a home and a wife.
People need support to find their niche. We were able to do that within the family. Others need help from outside but that doesn't mean it can't be done.

This.
I think the word "needs" is dangerous and overused. We all have different learning styles but we can't list the optimal learning style for each child and label it a need.
Education only works with a state provided model if collective and ultimately children have to be taught the responsibility of behaving in a non ideal environment.

Parents have to accept their child won't reach their full academic potential remembering that neither will the academically gifted child sat next to theirs, who has to spend 7 hours a day distressed and distracted by the behavioural problems of his classmates and who would give anything for them to stay quiet.

Truthfully I wish there were options for schools: some traditional, some montessori, some with an asd focus etc... giving parents a choice but once you're there you just take what's given.
Individualised plans are materially impossible to implement and only breed a sense of entitlement.

Nobody.would deny that there are problems.

The cost to attempt to address them is way beyond what the nation can afford so we're stuck with schools muddling through as best they can with some schools doing a better job than others.

This.

I’m autistic and loved learning in a quiet/silent classroom just focussing on my work. I absolutely cannot cope with chaos and noise. So much so I stretched myself financially to the eyeballs to buy a detached property as I almost had a breakdown living in a flat with noisy neighbours. I wear noise cancelling headphones a lot of my life.

There was a similar thread once where people were talking about adjustments and how there should be movement breaks for everyone. All classes should just have more movement generally. And also how fidget toys were great and allowing kids to focus better and stay in the classroom and they should be more widely used. However, I pointed out that had I been in a room where we had to get up and move a lot, and had a child next to me clicking and flicking a toy constantly I couldn’t have coped. I was told my views were disgraceful and if I was to complain about it I would be denying some children their right to education and if I couldn’t cope with it then I should be removed from the class. (Which, as I pointed out, I actually would have loved. I would have LOVED to be alone in a classroom just doing my work!!)

But I don’t understand why it would be discriminatory to say one child must have a right to mainstream education with all the adjustments but another (like me) tough shit you would need to be removed. I don’t understand why one adjustment should be at the expense of someone else. And how schools are meant to deal with this. It seems that basically the quiet kids who need quiet and order will just get told to suck it up.

You realise there aren't actually that many more of us, we're just diagnosed more accurately?