What should school for ND kids look like? AIBU to suggest that a one size fits all is wrong?

[Jadebanditchillipepper]

As above really. Do you think that the current school system is right for all children? Particularly those children with SEN.

I have three children. DC 2 and 3 are both neurodiverse and school in it's present form has been at best - not meeting their needs and a worst, harmful to both of them.

The eldest of the two is now 18. They have never been happy in school. They were bullied in primary school and then in secondary school, just had no friends, hated school and were just miserable. When I spoke to the school they weren't interested - as long as they behaved and did reasonably well in school, the fact that they were unhappy didn't matter.....

Eventually, when they started to refuse to go to school, I demanded a meeting. When I suggested that DC2 might be Neurodiverse, they laughed at me. So we moved to a different school who were more switched on.

Initially, DC2 did well, but then there were problems with bullying etc again. Limped through GCSEs and eventually ended up in a small independent school for A levels.

DC3 who is also AuDHD has gone to the same school DC2 did GCSEs in. Struggled in year 7 - reasonable adjustments put in place so managed year 7. Year 8 - total disaster - reasonable adjustments completely ignored. struggling to attend school October/November. School Finally agreed to reduced timetable end of November and now managing to attend 3 lessons (out of 5) per day.

Why don't schools recognise that every child is different and that some need adjustments?

Its one of the reasons we are all so much worse off nowadays - as a society we are much less productive and we are also supporting millions working age adults who are unable to work. The maths doesn't maths - if services and resources are to be provided for disabled people, other people have to be working to pay for them and fewer and fewer people are working as a percentage of the working age population.

I’m sorry but defeatist talk like that just isn’t good enough. All children should have an uncluttered learning environment and it’s very easy to provide visuals without sticking things all over the walls that most can’t see anyway- key rings, timetables stuck on desks etc. Movement breaks and non noisy fidget breaks are very easy to provide- lots of schools manage. Throwing your arms up in the air saying it’s impossible isn’t good enough.

Soooo make the working environment easy to access.

There's no such thing as a school that suits all nd children! My dd went to a trial morning at a recommended school, she was under camhs with council willing to fund and it was an absolute nightmare, completely chaotic with boys shouting in corridors, the classrooms were noisy as various students had issues and they weren't sitting down.

My DD's ideal school was a 1950's strict grammar school in rows and a teacher who kept complete control and only the teacher spoke (one class in her mainstream had an old school teacher, she attended that lesson but spent most the rest of the day working on her laptop at the back of the school office.)

Quiet and orderly suits some dc and they can't deal with noisy rowdy students

Don’t think any of the fidget toys we use click, those that need absolute silence have headphones and for older children and adults there are Loops which can screen all levels and types of noise. Many many ND people work.

As a former teacher, it was impossible to give every pupil the classroom experience they needed and deserved, because so many needs conflicted and I had no support to deal with it.

As a parent, it's why I deregistered my 10yo daughter. She is working several years ahead academically but is definitely ND and was not coping with a classroom full of constant arguments and shouting that the teacher was struggling to control. She was crying every day in school out of frustration because she was either having to help lower attaining pupils with their work (which translated into them getting her to do their work for them) or sometimes being given appropriately challenging work, but then being left to it and unable to get any help in areas she was struggling because the teacher's attention was needed with the lower attaining pupils, so her confidence was knocked.

It wasn't the teacher's fault, but it wasn't the right environment for my daughter. Luckily we were in a position where I was at home anyway and she's now thriving in home ed, but not everyone has that option, so kids and teachers continue to struggle.

I should reiterate that it was not gf specialist autism school that was a non starter, they are aimed at disruptive autism and mostly boys!

Of course 1 size doesn't fit all but it's not going to get much better with Labour’s 'inclusion' agenda ie a cost saving exercise.
No government will put the investment in, we have money for some things, education doesn't seem to be one of those things! So, so short sighted and children (both NT + ND) suffer. The current education system fails so many kids. The money for SEN pledged by Labour seems to be ringfenced for capital projects instead of more SEN support eg specialist support TAs etc.

I’m not in the UK (USA) but it does drive me batty when other parents of ND kids start generalising from their own experience. A typical class of 30 is going to be an issue, yes. But some ND kids are very self motivated, others need more structure. Some are very responsive to peer models and some are not. So I don’t think we are going to find a magic formula the way some parents think we will.

And that's why we will never have a system that fully meets the need of every child, whether ND or NT BUT I do think we can do better than what we've currently got.

I will say that American schools are very big on inclusion as it’s the law. The research does show it works. The problem is that it needs to be funded and staffed properly.

i liked that my DS here had a lot of flexibility and once we moved to secondary we could tailor his plan by subject. He has dysgraphia along with ASD and ADHD, and he was able to be in a support class for English but in an accelerated maths class. One of the schools he might have attended if we had stayed in the UK has an autism unit. (I have friends with DC at this school.) there, it’s all or nothing. Either you have to be mainstreamed, or if you need additional support you must do all your lessons in the unit and be limited to 5 GCSEs.

It's a tough one. The main problem is money.

My only official diagnosis is OCD, but a young relative was diagnosed with what was then termed Asperger's plus ADHD in the '90s. Other family members have since been diagnosed with ADHD and dyslexia.

A medic has suggested that I have ASDS and ADHD, but there's no point in a diagnosis at my age - nearly 65.

As a teacher, I found it increasingly difficult to deal with the needs of all - I'd get children with ADHD coming in with fidget toys, clickers, etc. Fine for them, but disruptive for others.

I much preferred a quiet classroom as a child.

As pp have said, as long as the child is ticking the necessary boxes school don't bother. I pulled my youngest son from school completely as we had absolutely zero support. His mental health was suffering badly. I asked his head of year for a reduced timetable or just do the essential GCSEs. I was told that he had to do all 8 subjects. The final straw was when he came home with a 50 page homework book for one subject at half term. To be completed over half term. He went back but he was just completely overwhelmed. A year of home schooling and we managed to get him onto a 14-19 study programme at the local adult education centre. He has completely changed. So much happier and relaxed about his GCSEs. Also learning a trade. Cannot thank the education centre enough for changing my son

Why don't schools recognise that every child is different and that some need adjustments?

Believe me, we really do.

I spend lunchtimes with the SENDCo and many of our conversations centre around this.

The problem is that, re can recognise the individual needs but we can't change the professional expectations of us or the demands of the job.

The whole thing is contradictory.

One one hand, we are told (and recognise) that eg transitions are difficult and that cognitive overload is a thing. We are told to be mindful, put things in place and meet the individual needs of children. Yet, on the other, the timetable includes very many hard transitions during the day and the curriculum is full of cognitive overload and we can't change those for individual children. The day is packed amd we are constantly told to 'demand' more from them.

We know what the children need but we don't have the staff, the space or the resources to meet those needs.

Nor the flexibility in the timetable or curriculum.

Have reported your disgustingly ableist comment. You do realise disabled people have existed all this time and contributed in many ways to society don’t you?

Someone up thread mentioned the 'progress' that the UK has made, educationally in the last 15 years. I would argue that a lot of this progress has caused many of the issues that we are now seeing. The curriculum is so narrow, the teaching style is so limited, and the academic expectations are so fast (not high - just get to a pointless level of memorisation as quickly as possible). Only a tiny proportion of learning styles are catered for by the system (no criticism of teachers doing their best within it). As an adult, I would struggle to sit at a desk learning entirely through PowerPoint slides all day. Children need to make, create, explore, experience. They need to play - which is where they will learn the social and self regulation skills that allow them to cope in a class of 30. We need to slow the expectations and broaden the curriculum, so that more children have an opportunity to succeed, and enjoy at least some of their time in school.

The adults I know with ADHD have emerged, albeit at 40yo, as the most wonderful productive people I know. They just need to find their thing first.

I don't think there is a solution for schools really other than one size fits all, it simply isn't economically feasible to have a bespoke 121 service for, anecdotally based on my current teaching experience, 30% of the class. Because remember that that 30% all have needs different to each other.

@Dalmau

All children should have an uncluttered learning environment and it’s very easy to provide visuals without sticking things all over the walls that most can’t see anyway- key rings, timetables stuck on desks etc. Movement breaks and non noisy fidget breaks are very easy to provide- lots of schools manage.

If children move classroom every hour (as they do in almost all secondaries), it IS difficult. I can't reset a classroom including sticking a new timetable on a desk or five and putting out/putting away key rings in the four mins between one lesson ending and the next beginning. I can barely nip to the loo and get the next lesson ready!

How should I do non disruptive movement breaks in a school where children should not be outside the classroom unattended? They have to be in a classroom or accompanied by an adult if moving to a different room. No toilet breaks during lessons unless for medical reasons. And no TAs.

I think a lot of the issue here is that they were bullied which is awful. This would then affect their confidence and ability in other areas. It’s hard for teachers to stop this completely.

Even if they manage to prevent them from being actively bullied, if kids have decided they don’t like certain other kids they’ll just ignore them which is heartbreaking really.

I wasn’t really bullied as such, but every time I moved school (3 times before age 11) it would take me at least a term, sometimes a year to make friends. I can imagine I’d have been miserable if things had continued that way. I couldn’t really concentrate that well in school but because I ended up enjoying the social aspect I was ok. I’d just go home and learn what I needed then.

The irony is the teachers in High school assumed I was lazy since I was unfocused in class and didn’t understand how I achieved high grades. What they didn’t know is I was an undiagnosed ND who got no additional support in exams but was actually working very hard at home and in quiet reference libraries to compensate for the fact that school wasn’t a great learning environment for me although it was enjoyable since I had friends to see.

I don’t think schools can cater for everyone really tbh.

* I didn’t mean to quote the whole OP!*

Smaller schools would be a start. Recognition and differentiation between those who need a busy chatty classroom and those who need quiet in your chair classroom. More outdoor time. Healthy and tasty school meals. Soft starts after holidays. And this all the way through to 18.

If noise cancelling headphones cut out absolutely all noise they would also cut out the teacher. They don’t cut out all noise. I know. I’ve tried many many sets. You can easily still hear people talking around you even at low-ish volume. It just muffles it. Even if a fidget toy is spent in some cases you can still see them flicking it and playing with it next to you.
I’m not saying children that need this shouldn’t have it. All I’ve ever asked is what about the children that can’t deal with these things?
As a PP said about their child, my ideal school would be a 1950s sit at your desk in silence school. But I am well aware that wouldn’t suit everyone. But how do you merge the needs of those who can’t tolerate people yelling, flicking, getting up, constantly talking with those that do need to do those things.

I went to a small school, 16 kids per class in primary 7 then 20 kids for high school which was attached to the primary 7.

I don’t see how practical this would be to split the class further into chatty and quiet? I would have also hated more outdoor time unless it was organised sport which others would hate.

You really can’t tailor it everyone.

The level.of need does seem to be getting much worse so I think there must be external factors affecting the number of children we now see who struggle to cope in a classroom. Not entirely sure what they are though.

Or maybe all the shit we are doing, all the 1 to 1s, and sensory diets and the low demand?

Is it working? I think it arguably all its doing is making some parents happier.

There's a child in my DC class. They have steadily relaxed rule after rule after rule for him, removed boundaries & consequences, done everything mum & psychologist have demanded, and his behaviour and attainment is worse than ever and he is "disregulated" at home just as much.

The cost of what they have offered him, both in financial terms and in terms of the unhelpful messages to other children that you never have to do things you find uncomfortable, have been enormous. Its a finite pot, that is less money and effort available for his peers. But its produced no real measurable gain.

You work at it. Loops filter noise, put students in different areas of the classroom….what you don’t do is throw your arms up in defeat. It’s not good enough.

Low demand does not exist. Have you looked at the curriculum amd Ofsted expectations.121s are as rare as hen’s teeth. Have you not seen the Sen funding crisis outlined in the media?🤔