What should school for ND kids look like? AIBU to suggest that a one size fits all is wrong?

[Jadebanditchillipepper]

As above really. Do you think that the current school system is right for all children? Particularly those children with SEN.

I have three children. DC 2 and 3 are both neurodiverse and school in it's present form has been at best - not meeting their needs and a worst, harmful to both of them.

The eldest of the two is now 18. They have never been happy in school. They were bullied in primary school and then in secondary school, just had no friends, hated school and were just miserable. When I spoke to the school they weren't interested - as long as they behaved and did reasonably well in school, the fact that they were unhappy didn't matter.....

Eventually, when they started to refuse to go to school, I demanded a meeting. When I suggested that DC2 might be Neurodiverse, they laughed at me. So we moved to a different school who were more switched on.

Initially, DC2 did well, but then there were problems with bullying etc again. Limped through GCSEs and eventually ended up in a small independent school for A levels.

DC3 who is also AuDHD has gone to the same school DC2 did GCSEs in. Struggled in year 7 - reasonable adjustments put in place so managed year 7. Year 8 - total disaster - reasonable adjustments completely ignored. struggling to attend school October/November. School Finally agreed to reduced timetable end of November and now managing to attend 3 lessons (out of 5) per day.

Why don't schools recognise that every child is different and that some need adjustments?

Actually some children who struggle with school do go on to be working members of society.

We need more in between schools, some SEN schools are very specialist and wouldn't suit some ND people.

And re gain. How do you know? His progress, IEP or EHCP will be private.

I also would have hated more outdoor time.

The thing is even with m splitting them into quiet and chatty, you’ll likely get parents of those in the “chatty” class saying the kids in the quiet class are doing better (because are more focused) and so those in the chatty group aren’t being given the same opportunities as those in the quiet. So discrimination etc will be mentioned.

Plus it’s guaranteed you’ll get at least one parent insisting their child needs quiet in order to learn. But. That child will be a loud disruptive child. But they should still be in the quiet class. Because even though THEY are disruptive, they can’t cope with OTHERS around them being being disruptive. So what do you do there??

Okay but would you be ok with those having a different curriculum or would you expect all these kids in special schools to be working towards GCSE's?

The way special schools used to work was that there was little emphasis in qualifications and much more on functional skills acquisition and preparation for life.

But lots of people didn't like that, as they felt their child is capable of more, and was being consigned to the scrapheap before being given a chance.

But the problem is, yes some of these children are capable of some qualifications but the sheer level of support they need to acquire them is huge and ultimately costs a vast amount and often, because that level of support cannot feasibly be replicated in the workplace (working adults cant be provided with a 1:1 in huge numbers!!), these young people are no more able to hold down a job than before, so what was the point?

The issue at the moment is despite vast amounts of money being spent on SEN with ever increasing numbers of young people accessing support, outcomes are not improving.

So what do people really think the answer is without spending more money that isn't there? There isn't one

There are two aspects to school. The curricululm and the environment.

There are some children that will always need a different curriculum and some that will always need a different environment and some that need both. So special schools should exist.

in terms of mainstream.

I think the curriculumn is a bit fast in the earlier years, and a bit content heavy in the later years so to me it really works for the "top" 50% but is a bit of a mess for the 'bottom' 50%. I think high stakes national tests that are published are too early. I dont have an issue with external moderation but thinks like phonics pass rates or sats shouldn't be publicly out there.

I think the environment varies school to school. But most childfdn actually prefer places to be calm, with consistent (fair) rules.

re gain. How do you know? His progress, IEP or EHCP will be private

Mum is a friend and a talker, she has told me loads about all of it including whats in the EHCP.

The way special schools used to work was that there was little emphasis in qualifications and much more on functional skills acquisition and preparation for life.
But lots of people didn't like that, as they felt their child is capable of more, and was being consigned to the scrapheap before being given a chance.
But the problem is, yes some of these children are capable of some qualifications but the sheer level of support they need to acquire them is huge and ultimately costs a vast amount and often, because that level of support cannot feasibly be replicated in the workplace (working adults cant be provided with a 1:1 in huge numbers!!), these young people are no more able to hold down a job than before, so what was the point?
The issue at the moment is despite vast amounts of money being spent on SEN with ever increasing numbers of young people accessing support, outcomes are not improving.
So what do people really think the answer is without spending more money that isn't there? There isn't one

This. This is the issue.

No it isn’t. Many many autistic people can work and don’t need or have 121 s at school or in the work place.

There are options for schools. In the borough I work in we have about 15 special schools, for different ages and needs, I have worked in around 8 different London boroughs in my career and all have multiple special schools, plus numerous ARP's attached to mainstream schools.

I'm a paediatric health professional going into these schools, and can see they are absolutely overwhelmed. My current borough has doubled its number of specialist places in the past 5 years but still nowhere meeting need. Some parents are also unrealistic about their childs needs, we have several who have been offered specialist places, which means they have very high needs ( the threshold for getting a specialist place us getting higher due to demand) but refuse and insist on mainstream, and it's really hard for schools to say no.

The other issue is cost. Special school places cost anywhere between 40k and 100k. Mainstream places costs around 6k, and even if the child has a full time 1 to 1, they cost 20-25k. Of course as parents, we want to say 'money doesn't matter, the child comes first' but ultimately there is only so much money that councils have to spend on SEN and when a special school place for 1 very high need child costs the same as a whole class in mainstream, it's a difficult scale to balance.

All children are important, my daughter is high functioning ASD, can cope fine in a standard classroom in her current class of 20, she doesn't need any significant extra help. Then they added in 3 children with autism who are loud, run around the classroom and grab and break her work and stationary, and now she is struggling to focus, is coming home exhausted from masking and having meltdowns, but school don't see it so they don't feel they should change anything, and even if they did, I doubt they would remove those 3 boys from her class, which is what she needs.

I dont envy teachers, they have a huge challenge.

I think the word "needs" is dangerous and overused. We all have different learning styles but we can't list the optimal learning style for each child and label it a need.
Education only works with a state provided model if collective and ultimately children have to be taught the responsibility of behaving in a non ideal environment.

This. We can't expect optimal for every child or even some on an individual basis. Every child matters equally and their needs must be balanced based on the collective outcome.

I agree with this. I don't think any country will ever be able to provide a bespoke individual education for millions of young people with a whole range of needs.

Agree with @PerditaLaChien and @Jabtastic and this is coming from a late diagnosed ND adult. I’m glad in some ways that I just had to get on with it at school.

Going to a smaller school was an absolute Godsend though. my brothers went to a massive school and I always knew I’d have hated it.

@Bushmillsbabe

All children are important, my daughter is high functioning ASD, can cope fine in a standard classroom in her current class of 20, she doesn't need any significant extra help. Then they added in 3 children with autism who are loud, run around the classroom and grab and break her work and stationary, and now she is struggling to focus, is coming home exhausted from masking and having meltdowns, but school don't see it so they don't feel they should change anything, and even if they did, I doubt they would remove those 3 boys from her class, which is what she needs.

That sound terrible - how is this being addressed? Is this not considered bullying?

Which outcomes are you measuring. I am interested, it sounds like you have read a report on this and I woukd like to read it.

There are a huge number of children with sen who don't have 1 to 1 support and aren't costing any more than any other child. They seem to manage better at some schools than others and it would be great to understand why.

The thing is , school does not in anyway reflect working life so its far from guaranteed that a child who struggles in school will also struggle in the work place. But they still need the basic reading, writing and social skills to reach the work place.

It’s completely unrealistic to expect a bespoke service from a system that is supposed to deliver to 100% of the population on a budget. Personally I think small schools are much worse. Small classes are intense and can be hideous for friendship issues. Small buildings are claustrophobic and have fewer facilities. Small schools come with small outside spaces and poor sports facilities.
Peoples needs are conflicting. One person needs a silent classroom, one needs peer discussion, one needs a fidget toy, the other is driven round the twist by the constant fidgeting, one needs to leave the class whenever they fancy it, the others are distracted by the disruption, one needs to run around and have more playtime, another struggles with the lack of structure during breaks. There was a thread a few days ago where a parent was complaining her that her child’s school didn’t allow rolled up shirt sleeves. Every September the papers are full of sad faced parents and children whining because they thought the uniform policy didn’t apply to them. I can’t imagine the complaints if they started splitting the class into quiet learners and disruptive shouters. Not being allowed to wear ballet flats and jeggings would be small potatoes. How many disruptive shouters would be moved into the quiet learners group because the disruptive group didn’t meet their needs? How many people would be happy with the choice of a room with no peer discussion where everyone had to to quietly get on with their work without interacting or a room where anything goes because some children need to let off steam and one size doesn’t fit all. The issue isn’t just that one size doesn’t fit all, it’s an increasing expectation that one size should fit my child perfectly even if that’s shit for everyone else. My child needs more outside time and less classroom teaching so everyone should have their academics cut. My child needs to be given friends so your child now has the job of being their friend. My child needs silence so your child can’t speak. My child needs a small school so fuck those who want the diversity and bustle of a bigger community. My child needs individual attention, so your child can wait for whole class teaching. I think they only thing that can be done with immediate affect ie without dramatic budget increases and huge recruiting and training programmes, is to offer the sort of hyper- consistency offered by schools such as Michaela, where there is noise in classrooms but it is predictable and organised, and there is an emphasis on the collective rather than the individual. Whatever else children need - they need consistency and clarity of expectation above all.

DS1 would benefit from smaller class sizes. He copes through a school day but burns out and shuts down at home to revover. He needs an intellectually stimulating environment, but calm sensory stimulus (lack of)

My two DCs clash on their sensory needs. DS2 needs a lot more sensory input and movement. Fortunately our house is big enough to spread out in.

My hope for DS1 is that he survives the school years and emerges with the qualifications he needs to get into a geeky autism-friendly niche job.

The only avaliable plan B if he burns out would be to home educate which following our experiences 2020/21 would be an absolute fucking binfire.

The assumption of the system is that SENs = low intelligence and/ or high physical needs. That's before starting on lack of funding, lack of specialist places and systems targeted at prevaricating not meeting need. How many TAs could be funded out of the amounts spent on not giving out EHCPs and the resulting tribunals? The system has not kept pace with the numbers of children with high levels of support needs and changes in mainstream environments and curriculum have marginalised children pushed beyond their coping range; bigger schools, poor acoustics in buildings, restricted curriculum focused on passing tests. The variety of mainstream schools has declined and the rise of the corporate academy has created stressful conditions in general, for staff and pupils.

The whole system needs to be less one-size-fits-(nearly) all and have more variation within it.

Many neurodiverse children can become adults that make meaningful contributions to society but only if they are able to learn effectively during their time at school. At the moment many of these children are not getting a suitable education which means that they will not be able to work as adults. Some children are leaving the education system with such severe ptsd that they are barely able to function in life, never mind hold down jobs.

Ftr, neurodiversity is just better recognised now, there’s not actually more of it.

I am sorry your family is struggling, OP.

I think schools do recognise that every child is different, which is why some try to push the ones who don't fit the particular mould of their school out. I agree that there should be more schools, so that public education can cater to more diverse needs. Mainstream schools aren't right for every child, but can be right for some children with adaptations. Some special schools aren't right for SEN kids who are very bright, but don't fit the mainstream mould. As with everything, OP, it comes down to the general will of society, and money.

life isn't perfectly tailored to everyone's own needs and wants so at some point, most people have to learn to adapt to get along in the workplace and in society. Of course, some people will never be able to do so and they need support but for many people, they are going to have to and school is a place also to learn that, in a supportive way.

This is true. There's a tension between supporting people who don't function well in the typical school environment and allowing everyone to grow up believing that everything should be adapted to be as optimal as possible for their needs.

It's a really hard point for society to grapple with. On the one hand as @Meadowfinch points out lots of children who have struggled with formal education find themselves when they find the right environment. Clearly we have a responsibility to support children who can't cope in formal education.

But for the majority of children, they will to some extent have to adapt to the way that society wants them to behave and conduct themselves.

I am not going to say that the need has been overstated because I know its very real and that schools are at breaking point trying to deal with this: I personally know several families who are struggling with school refusal and issues relating from SEN. I know how debilitating this can be. But I worry that we have developed a mindset whereby children with more mild "needs" but who have difficulty adapting to the rules of mainstream society or just don't want to work within the rules will expect that the environment will be shaped to meet what is optimal for them.

Not only can we not afford to pay for this, I don't think its great for society in the round: it creates an expectation that we never have to adapt to any social expectations.

We really need a system with smaller schools and smaller classes. For ND children, class sizes need to be no more than around 15, and school sizes 500 maximum. That would obviously benefit NT children also, but unless we can move to a system where that is the norm then there is a case for a network of small schools which are not special schools but which given preference to children who need them due to SEN. It would cost more, but I suspect the benefits would ultimately far outweigh the costs.

No I agree it’s not good enough.

But the problem is I guarantee if I suggested you work at it by trying to help the kids that need the fidget toys to slowly stop using them or by moving the kids who need to movement breaks there would be cries of discrimination.

What tends to happen is the kids who can’t tolerate the disruption get told to work at tolerating it and they are the ones who will be moved if needed.

Agree we need more in between schools. Dd12 is autistic and the wheels came off at secondary school when I had to pull her out due to almost a mental breakdown (both her and me). Trying to get her into school every day was impossible and she would beg me not to make her go on and start hitting herself it was so distressing.

So now we are waiting for a specialist school which are rarer than hens teeth. Of the ones there are some have said they can't meet needs and the rest are full.

She now has a tutor three hours a week which is hardly ideal.

We had a lovely early help worker who was liaising between me and the LA for a school but she has had to sign off as the wait is too long. So I'm now left alone to look for a school that doesn't exist.

Thing is though without a huge cost how would we get a school system suitable for so many different needs? We cannot have lots of different options with different class sizes, more outdoor time for some and less for others, more sit down learning for some and less for others, quiet classrooms and noisy classrooms, 1-1s and small groups learning for lots of children, It just wouldn't be feasible within the state system there isn't the money or resources available.

What’s the future of society going to be like with so many ageing people? Are you going to need to pretend people don’t get old, as well?
Much more pressing problem than more school kids being recognised to have SEN