Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

This country as gone into terminal decline

1000 replies

Carmes · 29/12/2024 08:38

I have 2 young children in school.

I am becoming more and more anxious about what sort of jobs / careers they will have open to them.

I work for very large company with 10,000s of employees.

20 years ago whe I started work here there would be 100s of entry level jobs at any given time. These are jobs that don't require experience or a degree, ideal for a school leaver, and I know dozens of people who started their career this way.

Now there are maybe 10 jobs that would fit the same criteria.so. All the jobs have been offshored.
Now are the vacancies are for very specific technical skill set or experience.

This doesn't bode well for someone who has left school at 18'or even university.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Noras · 29/12/2024 14:05

MyLadyGreensleeves · 29/12/2024 14:02

Maybe but the part that is missing from your sentence is need to raise taxes...and spend it wisely.

This government has raised taxes and what have they done with a large part of this money.

They have made ridiculous pay deals.
They continue to give money to foreign wars
They have instigated numerous quangos-each member on each one of them will be on a very rich gravy train.
They continue to give money as aid to countries which could buy and sell us such as India. I have heard various justifications of this but none of them hold water.
Worst of all, they are happy to foot a bill which will cost more than 36 billion on the lunatic schemes of David Miliband.

Previous governments have done similar although this government is a particular example of incompetence. I know they have the excuse of not being very bright but even so,

Meanwhile, hospices receive a skittery amount each year and the rest has to be raised by them with a begging bowl.

I could have picked any number of examples there but I choose hospices.

David?

whydoihavetowork · 29/12/2024 14:05

All those hailing trades as the answer I would have agreed with you until two days ago... I found out my nephew who is in college training to be an electrician found out his second year has had its funding pulled by central government so to get a level 3 (basically essential level for electricians) his parents now have to pay £7k for what is the equivalent of upper 6th. We are crying out for trades and now they do this?? This is what made me realise how fucked we are.

MyLadyGreensleeves · 29/12/2024 14:07

Yes, I agree @Kittiwakeup but before that can happen there needs to be a shake up of exam marking.

If heaps of pupils achieve a grade A they all think they can go to "uni". Grade A should only be given out in rare cases but now, every man and his dog has at least one, leading to the crazy situation of having to introduce A* What next? A**

Exams in schools need to be much tougher. let crap "unis" go to the wall. send only the brightest to the rest and stop sneering at other life paths that don't involve a degree-especially a degree that has the word " studies" at the end of it-code for shite.

Mrsbloggz · 29/12/2024 14:07

They could build cheap social housing that's not allowed to be bought/sold or privately rented so effectively has no value as an "investment" and is just for actually housing people
This in particular sounds like an excellent idea@devilspawn
Why hasn't it happened already?!

TempestTost · 29/12/2024 14:07

RosesAndHellebores · 29/12/2024 13:53

@MyPithyPoster you seem to have forgotten that the NHS is free only at the point of delivery. A net contributor has paid in advance. The NHS is funded by the people for the people. DH and I are privileged - we pay eye watering amounts of tax probably covering 20 or more others. I/we have no issue about someone less fortunate receiving optimal care. It is the principle on which the NHS was founded and I don't particularly suppprt the NHS as the best possible system we could have. I'd be happier to pay more tax to support the introduction of a system such as that in France, Germany, Austria, Canada, NZ, Australia. I am not persuaded the NHs is sufficiently well-run or fit for purpose to merit more money.

Don't look to Canada, the health system here is failing at least as spectacularly as the NHS.

There are over 6 million Canadians with no access to a GP or equivalent, and recently there have been a number of cases of people dying while waiting to be seen in ERs. ERs in rural areas are often closed due to lack of staff.

I don't think it's chance that the model in Canada is quite similar to the NHS.

Bettyboo111 · 29/12/2024 14:08

Cesarina · 29/12/2024 13:54

..........Depends what is meant by "young".The poster whom I quoted didn't say how old her grandparents were when they died.
Going back to my hypothetical example, if I started work at 18, paid full NI contributions until I died aged 53, (to me, that is most definitely "dying young"), I would have built up 35 years of contributions. That would include any credits I may have built up under NI Credits, (previously called Home Responsibilities Protection) for time off work for maternity leave for example.
That's hardly not putting "very much in the pot", and in fact that's the number of years needed to qualify for the "new", (post April 2016) state pension.

What is this imaginary pot posters keep referring to?
It's just a figment of your imagination.

The idea of a public annuity system had a fixed timeline. Longevity has meant this fixed plan, concept, idea or whatever is no longer viable.

The issue is the 'success sequence' of re-education, job and marriage as a concept is finished. Destroyed by grandiose plans mainly independence. Certainly, in our family, we're planning for intergenerational living and supporting each other as a family.

The idea of gainful employment, a picket fence home and then 20-30 years of retirement is over.

Strikeoutnow · 29/12/2024 14:08

They could reduce corp tax below Ireland's rate now we've left the EU to incentivise all the big tech companies to be based in London instead of Dublin. They make up the majority of Ireland's GDP so would probably bankrupt them, but despite their tax evasions the companies pay huge amounts and have lots of great jobs.

The Irish are likely better educated & their population is 5m which is almost half the size of London so I’m not sure how much impact that would have on jobs?

They could restore the 1.5m empty houses that have been left to decline.
They could stop people from buying houses unless they're tax paying British citizens in order to reduce house prices and rent increases. And put the cost up to apply for citizenship given the inevitable wave of applications that will follow.

Many people have put their stock into property & expect returns so I’m not sure this will be popular as market changes at the top filter down. Im not sure it will make rents any cheaper, I think 1 in 9 adults own more than 1 property & it’s a higher % in the older generations.

They could overhaul how councils work so they're more efficient.

I don’t disagree but I’m not sure how you do it

They could make students pay council tax.
Can they afford it?

They could build cheap social housing that's not allowed to be bought/sold or privately rented so effectively has no value as an "investment" and is just for actually housing people.

Right to buy should end but it was a popular policy & councils think of short term gain.

RamblingEclectic · 29/12/2024 14:10

@RamblingEclectic "hard choices and shifts in perspectives and expectations" - this sounds very much like dealing with decline. How are you understanding decline if its not preparing ourselves for live becoming harder in most ways?

Things being different to expectation and making choices people don't like because it goes against those expectations doesn't mean it's going to be "harder in most ways". For me, terminal is the key part of terminal decline and would mean we're past the point of no return to social collapse. As others have mentioned, sectors have their ups and downs, regions of the country have long been having their ups and downs, but on the whole, I think the UK has a lot of opportunities, part of why I immigrated here rather than staying in the States, but also a lot of nonsense social perspectives and expectations that will make adjusting involve hard choices and perspective changes (similarly in the US, though I think it will be even harder there).

One for example is older age and how we die

The chances of you just falling asleep one night peacefully and warm in your bed of old age I believe are virtually zero.

That's difficult to tell in the UK as it is heavily discouraged to put old age on the death certificate, especially if someone is under 80.

Many of the things listed on there so we have 'reason' for the death are basically old age. It's still fairly normal for older people to slowly need more and more sleep, possibly with a rally near the end, before they go to sleep, their breathing slows, starts pausing for periods of time, until it stops. Sometimes terminal agitation sets in, but even at home, that can be well managed in many cases.

While likely to increase as percent of population as our population ages, the last stats I saw said that in those over 60, the prevalence of all forms of dementia was 7.1%, with those in their 60s being less than 2%, those in their 70s being 3-4% and with those over 80 at just over 11%. While it's hard to have clear numbers for old age deaths, IME, those stats are all far less than who die at those ages peaceful in bed, and placing the cut off at 60 because of dementia makes very little sense.

There is a social expectation that once we're over 60, we're all going to fall apart, while at the same time, many of the people in powerful positions in society are also over 60. We need to both recognise that disabilities that prevent working can happen at any age though do increase with age and how socially and personally we want to handle that, but many can and do meaningfully contribute - for better and for worse - well after 60. If we expect it and there is more of a social expectation for people to retrain or have work adjustments that are actually supported, it may be different or unpopular to switch, it doesn't mean it'll be overall harder.

Also, much of the world has to go through the population bulge so that's a world issue, not a UK issue. The UK has the benefit that other countries are going through it faster, which may help us pivot as evidence on how to handle it comes. Not the nicest thought, but I think it may help.

MyPithyPoster · 29/12/2024 14:10

Bettyboo111 · 29/12/2024 14:08

What is this imaginary pot posters keep referring to?
It's just a figment of your imagination.

The idea of a public annuity system had a fixed timeline. Longevity has meant this fixed plan, concept, idea or whatever is no longer viable.

The issue is the 'success sequence' of re-education, job and marriage as a concept is finished. Destroyed by grandiose plans mainly independence. Certainly, in our family, we're planning for intergenerational living and supporting each other as a family.

The idea of gainful employment, a picket fence home and then 20-30 years of retirement is over.

Edited

I was the poster. Young I believe was 50 Ish.
But they weren’t in roles where they would’ve been net contributors as many of the workingclass werent. Where the grandparents - born prewar were of the opinion that you don’t rely on the state for anything, there was quite a switching attitude for the next generation.
But that was exactly the point. There is no pot therefore when your parents die, you can’t claim their share of it.

louddumpernoise · 29/12/2024 14:11

MyLadyGreensleeves · 29/12/2024 14:02

Maybe but the part that is missing from your sentence is need to raise taxes...and spend it wisely.

This government has raised taxes and what have they done with a large part of this money.

They have made ridiculous pay deals.
They continue to give money to foreign wars
They have instigated numerous quangos-each member on each one of them will be on a very rich gravy train.
They continue to give money as aid to countries which could buy and sell us such as India. I have heard various justifications of this but none of them hold water.
Worst of all, they are happy to foot a bill which will cost more than 36 billion on the lunatic schemes of David Miliband.

Previous governments have done similar although this government is a particular example of incompetence. I know they have the excuse of not being very bright but even so,

Meanwhile, hospices receive a skittery amount each year and the rest has to be raised by them with a begging bowl.

I could have picked any number of examples there but I choose hospices.

Pay rises were part of the independent review bodies or don't you think nurses teachers and soldiers should have a pay rise?

Hospice funding was cut by 25% in real terms by the Tories since 2015, Labour have partly restored this, with a £100m increase, the NI increases will cost 30m, to a 70m net gain and there is more coming next year.

But don't let your hatred of Labour get in the way of the facts.

rainingsnoring · 29/12/2024 14:12

whydoihavetowork · 29/12/2024 14:05

All those hailing trades as the answer I would have agreed with you until two days ago... I found out my nephew who is in college training to be an electrician found out his second year has had its funding pulled by central government so to get a level 3 (basically essential level for electricians) his parents now have to pay £7k for what is the equivalent of upper 6th. We are crying out for trades and now they do this?? This is what made me realise how fucked we are.

I'm really sorry to hear that. No longer term thinking is there?

Strikeoutnow · 29/12/2024 14:12

you seem to have forgotten that the NHS is free only at the point of delivery. A net contributor has paid in advance.

Loads aren’t net contributors though but we don’t refuse treatment.

DH and I are privileged

I guessed right then! 😉

OnlyDespairRemains · 29/12/2024 14:13

FeliznaviDogs · 29/12/2024 13:45

The hard work is when they get into the job. As with my own adult child. It’s putting in the hours and showing that they’ll work more than the bare minimum. The minimum gets you nowhere. And I speak as someone who got their law qualification as a single parent working 50+ hours a week as a paralegal whilst also studying through the night after I’d cared for my child and put them to bed for the night.

Younger people at work are very aware of MH issues but from experience (though other employment may be different) it’s on a weekly basis that they need to take time out for their MH, ‘just need some me time’ etc. I feel there’s perhaps a resilience issue sometimes.

My child also worked hard for their qualification which they haven’t used and gone into a completely different area of work. An apprenticeship would have meant they didn’t have 50k of student debt. 🤷🏻‍♀️

The only reward for hard work is more hard work - or that is what life is currently teaching him.

At what point do we finally realise that we are being gaslit and that it will never actually pay off? That all of our hard work is just being exploited by the people who already own most of the assets and resources and are simply bent on acquiring them all and would love to see us return to Victorian servitude, or worse.

You seem to think that all of the work you must have done is an example to follow, but to me it is one more example of our systems failure. We should not have to work ourselves into the ground in a world when there is more than enough for everyone to have what they need to live and prosper. What is the point if we are not making a better world for our children, but a worse one?

You say the minimum gets you nowhere, but so far neither has all my son's hard work. But I should now tell him that the real work actually starts when he gets a job (if only he could get one)? No wonder his generation have mental health issues.

Strikeoutnow · 29/12/2024 14:13

Frankly this seems quite radical but if I were the younger generation I would refuse to have kids. Unless ‘people’ become a needed commodity the decline will continue.

Young people aren’t having dc

There has to be a world wide recognition that we don’t need the population levels of the 20th century with A I. We don’t need the secretaries, sales assistants etc We do need more carers though m.

If you want to reduce population you need to start culling older people? Then we don’t need more carers

MyPithyPoster · 29/12/2024 14:14

rainingsnoring · 29/12/2024 14:12

I'm really sorry to hear that. No longer term thinking is there?

It’s exactly the same with stem. I have a friend who works in nuclear fuels. They’re absolutely desperate for scientists. And yet, it took my children six months to secure roles after graduation. And when I looked at the content of their degree in depth from a redbrick, you could see why. (Obviously didn’t say that to them).

Beekeepingmum · 29/12/2024 14:14

The welfare state has lead to a sort of reverse Darwinism where those with limited skills have lots of children supported by the state and these children don't tend grow up in a environment that fosters skills development for them. The skilled individuals are having fewer children and putting more resources into those. Which then drives increasing inequality. We need to find a way to reduce the number of children born into poverty and increase the number within wealthier families. I would increase maternity rights, make child care tax deductable so the higher earners get the biggest incentive to use it, and then cut the 2 child limit to 1 child.

louddumpernoise · 29/12/2024 14:14

TempestTost · 29/12/2024 14:07

Don't look to Canada, the health system here is failing at least as spectacularly as the NHS.

There are over 6 million Canadians with no access to a GP or equivalent, and recently there have been a number of cases of people dying while waiting to be seen in ERs. ERs in rural areas are often closed due to lack of staff.

I don't think it's chance that the model in Canada is quite similar to the NHS.

Many health systems are similar to the NHS, ie tax payer funded.

Business & the country is up in arms that they have to pay a small extra bit of NI, how do you you think they'd react if asked to part fund an insurance based model, costing them 100s of billions?

rainingsnoring · 29/12/2024 14:15

'You say the minimum gets you nowhere, but so far neither has all my son's hard work. But I should now tell him that the real work actually starts when he gets a job (if only he could get one)? No wonder his generation have mental health issues.'

Yes. Younger people are not stupid. They can see that hard work doesn't get you far in most cases, unless you have wealthy parents. Of course, a lot of younger people have just given up now. It's a pretty logical response to their situation.

MyLadyGreensleeves · 29/12/2024 14:15

louddumpernoise · 29/12/2024 14:11

Pay rises were part of the independent review bodies or don't you think nurses teachers and soldiers should have a pay rise?

Hospice funding was cut by 25% in real terms by the Tories since 2015, Labour have partly restored this, with a £100m increase, the NI increases will cost 30m, to a 70m net gain and there is more coming next year.

But don't let your hatred of Labour get in the way of the facts.

And don't let your love of it blind you to its uselessness.

JustGotToKeepOnKeepingOn · 29/12/2024 14:15

Boffle · 29/12/2024 09:59

Things always change and change is unknown.
I grew up with mass unemployment. That was followed by the tech revolution which did away with vast numbers of jobs previously done by semi skilled workers.
The job I did for 30 years is degree entry now, when me and my colleagues did it we all left school with just O levels. My children in their 20s with degrees have far, far better career prospects than I ever did and as they don't live in London they already own their own homes.
New careers and skills move in to take their place. And we will always need hairdressers, electricians, builders, none of which need a degree and none of those trades are ever without work.

Totally agree with this. I'm reading this thread and wondering where the posters live. I'm guessing it's London and South East.

The biggest problem I see is the negative attitudes. Change always happens. AI is constantly thrown around as 'the end'. It's really not. As roles are no longer needed others take their place. The job I'm doing didn't exist when I was at school. It's understandable to worry for your child's future but it'll all work out. Think positively! And teach them to think positively too.

Strikeoutnow · 29/12/2024 14:16

Maybe but the part that is missing from your sentence is need to raise taxes...and spend it wisely.**

But everyone has their own opinion on what this looks like. @MyPithyPoster wants to reduce healthcare spend for older people but that’s not going down well.

StopWearingGrey · 29/12/2024 14:16

I have not read all pages

Decline - no

Why do you think so many people wish to come to the UK ?

Free education
Free NHS
Benefit system
An opportunity to better oneself
State pension
I know that we all pay into the communal pot

Just different, from the pre Internet time

Mespher · 29/12/2024 14:18

Strikeoutnow · 29/12/2024 14:13

Frankly this seems quite radical but if I were the younger generation I would refuse to have kids. Unless ‘people’ become a needed commodity the decline will continue.

Young people aren’t having dc

There has to be a world wide recognition that we don’t need the population levels of the 20th century with A I. We don’t need the secretaries, sales assistants etc We do need more carers though m.

If you want to reduce population you need to start culling older people? Then we don’t need more carers

There was fine opportunity to have a good cull a few years ago but people were up in arms about murdering granny, especially on here.

rainingsnoring · 29/12/2024 14:19

'The biggest problem I see is the negative attitudes. Change always happens. AI is constantly thrown around as 'the end'. It's really not. As roles are no longer needed others take their place. The job I'm doing didn't exist when I was at school. It's understandable to worry for your child's future but it'll all work out. Think positively! And teach them to think positively too.'

The biggest problem is negative attitudes?! You think masses of people are simply imagining the visible decline and all they need is a better mental attitude?

Justforfun123 · 29/12/2024 14:20

MyPithyPoster · 29/12/2024 13:50

We know that you don’t know, that’s the point. You’ve not done the long-term maths here. You’re looking at short-term gains. Which may well be worth it for you.

I've done the long term maths. I have a young family and this is far superior to renting a similar sized place which would cost almost twice the amount I currently pay with the risk of eviction at any moment.
Yes ideally I'd have 400k ready to go on buying a house outright but most people don't have that or even the 30/40 etc k for a deposit on a normal mortgage so I'm just saying shared ownership is something to consider. Not many people seem to even know about it. And tbh I think people who bash it are just ignorant and don't know much about it. The only issues I've seen are when people get flats in London and are screwed by the service charges.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread