AIBU in thinking this could spread rapidly to other schools? Parents have to come into school to change NT DCs if they soil themselves.

[CwmYoy]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/schools-tell-parents-if-your-34349942

It's been a long time coming but I can see it will spread now there are fewer TAs.

As long as SEN needs are taken into account I think it's a good idea.

Our nursery were fully focused on toilet training
Our kids were there full time
Most nurseries I know ( when mine were small ) all did toilet training.

As an aside. School is about education and the kids, of course it is
We would, however, be naive to think as a country we can cope financially with children not in school- we can’t! The economy needs everyone working.

Yo know, I would maybe agree that due to the housing issues that are so common now, many people can't have jobs close enough to where they live. There are problems finding housing, moving, etc. So people find they have few options. I think this is a huge social problem for a lot of reasons.

However, I also think that in a more normal set up in terms of housing, the idea that both parents would think it is a reasonable idea to be working so far from their child's school should be a non-starter. There are a thousand things that could go wrong where a parent might need to come and collect a child, that is part of the responsibility of having a child, you need to consider who will take care of the child if something happens where they can't stay in school. Parents don't have a "right" to neglect that kind of the planning, it's not the job of the school or state to take kids off their hands 7 hours a day so parents can work.

We really need to be getting away from the idea that can work, and try and set up society so that people can find reasonable work close enough to their homes and schools.

We arranged our childrens schooling around the best school for them.
The best place to live for all of us and our work.
Neither my husband or I could work near our home, it is what it is.

We did not neglect planning or our children, perhaps you’re referring to someone else here. If you are referring to us that’s very rude and naive as you have no idea the roles people play in society.

We sent our children to private school that both accommodated the wide variety and different interests and abilities they each had and
accommodated our need and desire to work and
accomodated any potential immediate health issues as they had full time nurses and instant access to a gp open all hours.

There is no reasonable way every type of career can be accommodated near a school.
It’s absurd to think this is even remotely possible.

I get the struggle. Both me and DH work full time with an almost 3yo dc who has only just been potty trained. When she was born I had thought she'd be potty trained by 2 but with both of us working full time it's so hard to get the opportunity to give her the consistency to actually just do potty training once and do it right. I ended up taking 3 weeks off (not just for potty training, it was fixed business seasonal closure) so took full advantage of that and made it our number 1 priority all day every day until it was done. Many parents don't have this luxury and don't have the mental capacity to deal with potty training while away from dc for 8+ hours a day for work. I know people do it. I have friends who have done it. But they've also had kids who took to it fairly quickly and I imagine if you have one who is less compliant, it would be a huge stress.

On the flip side, not being potty trained at school is madness. And teachers, while they are carers, shouldn't be cleaning nappies. The occasional accident happens but when the kids are in nappies, that's not good. I do think partly the availability and convenience of nappies is a problem too. Back a few generations ago when only cloth nappies were used potty training was completed a lot younger because parents were tired of washing reusable cloth nappies. Now, for just a few pounds you can buy disposable nappies that last all the way up to when your kid is 5/6 years old. I completely understand that these are needed for some with additional needs. But imagine if you could only really easily get your hands on nappies up to the age of 3, let's say. I'm sure a lot more would be potty trained. A lot of the reason we held off was because nappies were so easy and convenient and with a busy life it just seemed so not worth the stress to mess up the flow of our lives by taking that convenience away (although I will say having a potty trained child is much easier... the training itself was not easier however).

So I guess this ban would work a bit like a size limit on nappies. Take away the convenience of teachers changing your kids for you (again, with exceptions made for kids with additional needs) and I'm sure the rates of potty training will increase.

If you work full time who looked after your dc.
If it was nursery why aren’t they doing potty training. If you’re doing it at home at the weekends they should continue with it at nursery.
Thats what nurseries used to do, not that long ago.

I am speaking in general, and if it applies to your situation, then it applies to you.

If you have kids, you need to be available to them whatever your job is, and if you can't, you need someone else to be available.

If a particular job won't allow for that, then you need a different job. Your obligation to your kids is more fundamental than your "right" to work in a sector of your choice.

How far away would be too far, in your mind? If neither parent could get to the child all day in an emergency, would it just be up to the school to manage that? And the child to deal with it?

Yet, 20% of children have SEN to an extent - so maybe it is not lazy parents ?

@SavingTheBestTillLast my elderly parents. They do a smashing job but they're generous enough to do all our childcare for free and really didn't enjoy potty training me and my siblings so we really don't feel it's their duty to do it for their grandkids. And realistically while we were working I'd see dc for an hour and a half in the morning and two hours in the evening (and obviously weekends) but it never felt like enough for her to really crack it. The rest of the time it would have fallen on my parents, who, unlike nursery, aren't being paid so should have to do the really tough part of child rearing.

It took dc 4 solid days of my full attention and effort to get her trained. Wouldn't have been possible without taking holiday or my seasonal work closure. Not every has this or can afford to take 4 holiday days to get it done so have to struggle around waking hours. Again, I totally understand that this is the reality for the majority of working parents but I'm simply saying I completely understand why the age is getting later and later of average potty training when the more stubborn cases aren't able to have that consistent learning time with parents!

They really don't. Parents need to put some effort in.

@ARealitycheck , what about school trips, especially residentials , which can be a week long , miles and miles away? It's more likely to have something happen then AND there is less staff .

Should parents follow their children on a school trip to London? Should they book a hotel , just in case something happens when the kids are in Wales, but they live in England?

I imagine there would be many SEN teenagers that are incontinent in a mainstream school if theu were it would have to be part if their EHCP thatctheu are assisted with personal care.

That’s nonsense - at our nursery, once kids were in the appropriate room (around aged 2), they started potty training en masse for a cohort. It’s much easier for nurseries to have children able to toilet independently, so it’s in their interest to encourage it.

Nurseries also have to pay to have nappy waste taken away, which concentrates the mind,

How does this work in practice anyway? Once DC turn 5 they are legally entitled to an education. The parent can refuse to come in. They can't send the DC home for this, it is not enough to exclude them. When external services visit they find DC that have been soiled for a long time, this would be flagged that the school are neglecting DC. What happens when Ofsted visit and children are sat in shit? The schools are downgraded? So does that particular LA just have all the schools sat in special measures? Or they all get closed down and this LA doesn't have schools? If this is as big a problem as that LA say then surely this is what would happen eventually.

No, you cannot demand it, but it is a positive choice parents can make.
Husband and I both work over an hour away from girls school and I'm not allowed a phone in work. he is allowed 3 wfh days, I am allowed 1. Therefore we made conscious choice that I would not take a promotion which required me to be in more despite it offering more money and better opportunities, and we alternate our days so 1 person is always wfh or off (I work 4 longer days and off on Fridays to make this work) so can be at the school within 5 mins of being called, which happens reasonably often due to youngest medical needs. It's not fair on either our children or the school for them to have to wait an extended period of time for us to collect if not well.

And if youngest hadn't been toilet trained (she was only reliable a few months before starting due to medical needs and youngest in year) I would never have expected school staff to change soiled nappies, DD was able to change wet pull ups herself, wipe and put a new one on, and I would have asked them to call us when soiled.

If you send your children to private school, you are in a totally different situation from what is the norm. With fees they may well have a budget to pay staff to go the extra mile. Public schools do not.

Not very many I don't think.

As a paediatric hcp working in commuinity, our borough has maybe 5 children in secondary mainstream who are not continent, all but 1 are due to a medical need such as a bowel abnormality, and they are able to change themselves in a disabled toilet. Only 1 needs changing by an adult, due to a head injury meaning they don't have enough hand control to do so themselves.

If a child is not continent by secondary due to a lack of understanding rather than a medical need, their learning disability is severe enough that they would be in a special school. But in primary many are still going through the ehcp process to get a special school place, or their needs are not clearly understood to decide whether they should be in mainstream or special, or the parebts are relying on school to toilet train.

@Bushmillsbabe

But in primary many are still going through the ehcp process to get a special school place, or their needs are not clearly understood to decide whether they should be in mainstream or special, or the parebts are relying on school to toilet train.

What is schools position on children in this position? Do the school staff deal with incidents or are parents expected to come in and deal with it?

My younger DS was quite hard to potty-train (compared to his older brother who did it before 2.5 years). I got a call from his nursery saying that they would not move him up to pre-school unless he was trained by 3 years old. I asked for the nursery's support and worked on it intensively for 5 days. He trained at 2y11m and is even dry at night. Sometimes you need that push.

Whats/where is this from? Is it new legislation, @BlueSilverCats ?

@Holidayshopping it's in the letter sent to parents in that particular area of Wales.

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/education/anger-schools-tell-parents-if-30622596.amp

I think the solution should be to fund schools better so they can have additional staff dedicated to things such as personal care - preferably bring back a school nurse position.

I think there are two main reasons a child is not toilet trained by school age - SEN or bad parenting.

If it is milder SEN it is pretty likely they won’t be diagnosed by reception age - my youngest was a nightmare to potty train (although we did manage by school age with a lot of work starting age 2 with just the odd wee accident in reception) and potentially has ADHD - but even at age 8 it’s not clear to us or the teachers if she has or if it’s just being “young” for her age. I’d imagine there are a lot of children like her who may have struggled more and not been trained. My DD would have been mortified if I had to come to school regularly, she hated it when she had accidents, but also wouldn’t have been able to change who she is.

If it’s bad parenting then I find it unlikely that they’ll be lovely parents who will say “oh of course, sorry, we’ll do it now”. They’ll either kick off at the teachers or make their children’s life miserable.

Plus once again it’s going to be women’s careers realistically impacted much more than men’s.

The thing with bad parenting, you need more than that to have an able child still in nappies years after they should be.

First, no other carers or childcare settings, because childcare settings particularly will always encourage and support toilet training, with parental support or not.

Secondly, a child that had no will,interest or curiosity to be potty trained. A child that doesn't care about fitting in , or a sense of embarrassment, or wanting to be part of the routine and doing what everyone else is doing. You might find plenty of those at 2, but the numbers dwindle at 3,4 and minimal if any, at 5. It might take a while, but once in an "official " setting it all starts.

So how many kids does that actually leave?

As an aside, we have plenty of kids with horrific home lives, kids under SS , kids in care etc. none of them are/were in nappies unless there were other issues at play as well, or they were literally too young.

@ARealitycheck

Saying that X number years ago, parents had to be nearby is patently untrue. What’s more is that pre mobile phones and pre internet use, getting hold of someone was much harder. These days, many more people are able to access their phones during work time. Contacting a parent is easier.

Even if a stay at home parent lived nearby, they may have gone shopping or out for lunch or any number of valid reasons they would have not been in contact. There was never an expectation that each child had a parent sitting by the landline.

I remember my sister having an accident at school and they took her to hospital via ambulance. They didn’t wait for my mum to come out of her meeting and be back at her desk to get to the landline. If I recall correctly, it wasn’t very long but they don’t hold off medical treatment waiting for the parent! My sister had a head injury and needed urgent medical attention and this is why school staff are in loco parents during school hours. She was fine luckily - needed assessment and stitches.

Imagine a doctor taking a call in the middle of explaining a cancer diagnosis to you to say Daisy has been sick once and needs collecting. That call could have waited 15 minutes- child would have been fine and your doctor could make arrangements to have them collected. Imagine your taxi driver pulling over on the way to the airport to take a call to say James has a temperature and needs collecting. Never mind your flight, that call couldn’t wait until you’d reached the airport 30 minutes later. There are so many scenarios when parents can answer the phone and make appropriate arrangements for their child and it doesn’t have to be that they answer on the first ring and are there in 10 minutes. This never happened in the past!

Ah, thank you for the link.