To think children are being excluded from school too easily?

[RibbyJumper]

Children and their welfare come first in any school - surely?

My DC had an EHCP before DC started reception. The school wanted to refuse DC’s placement. After a fight DC is in the mainstream school with extra funding (9 til 3 daily). DC can do Maths/Reading/Writing, has friends and is no behaviour problem. DC is very quiet and easily overlooked.

I’m so cross that they ever tried to exclude DC before DC had even started school.

DC is now in year 1 and there is no way DC gets his allocated provision. They’ve used it to fund other things.

However I now hear that the school have essentially excluded two other children in Year 1 in the afternoons. They stay for the morning and go home at lunchtime.

This is wrong isn’t it? What the hell is happening in our schools??

@ElizaGolightly

My understanding is that as DC gets 29 hours, DC does get that funding from the LA. The school doesn’t have to find that money. If DC was allocated less hours, the LA wouldn’t fund the whole amount. Is that right?
Also - why have a provision map if it’s just not possible to provide that support? It’s also a legal document?
The provision map states the school is given £16000 a year for DC.

Not enough ime. I think it'll literally take a teacher to get stabbed, or somebody to get permanently scarred before they'll kick some kids out in my dcs school. The headteacher bangs on about the bullies having a right to education. However, what about the education of all of the kids they're disrupting? When it is taking too much of the school's already lacking resources, to give these kids one to one supervision, in order to safeguard other pupils, than imo something needs to change. Unengaged parents, repetitive violent behaviour, targeted and persistent bullying which isnt improving over the span of years, despite all school measures being repeated, and exhausted yet again. Safety should be paramount for all kids, not just the bully.

You also have some parents who despite having significant social and MH needs themselves do know how to work the system.
They know that if they keep their child off on days they are due to be sanctioned or claim not to have got letters or just not turn up at school themselves for meetings they can delay PX for a long time.
Then thay can appeal, claim the child is not supported etc etc so it can take literally YEARS to PX.
The Deputy Head told me that he fears every day he might get stabbed when standing on the gate in the morning and he knows which child/children it is likely to be and we STILL can't PX them

I think you need to speak to the LA if the provision map isn't happening. You can do judicial review in some instances.

I understand people's concerns about disruptive children hurting thier child, or stopping learning for everyone. But, you've said many times that your child isn't disruptive.

For all we know, you are expecting a TA to do sign language of the teachers words to a deaf pupil or to do some kind of mobility thing for a chikd with cerbal palsy. I haven't looked at all your updates

OP, £16,000 paying for 1:1 support for 29 hours a week? hmmmm

Once you take into account the extras like a 5% employer pension contribution and employer NI, I work out the school can pay just over £13k for 39 weeks of termtime. I make it about £11.83 ph, and minimum wage is £11.44 per hour. In April minimum wage goes up to £12.21 - if the EHCP isn’t increased commensurately then you’ll have to lose hours.

Also You can’t expect the 1:1 to be constantly with your child in the classroom — what about time for meetings and planning- obviously the 1:1 needs time out to review the ehcp, work with the teacher and senco to figure out how to manage the child’s learning and review progress etc.

You cannot expect someone on that wage to do “free hours”.

I would be very surprised if the EHCP intends to cover the cost of fully supporting your child, basic maths and logic suggests that’s impossible.

The money is supposed to cover every single thing that the children need for being SEN so not all of the £16,000 is directly spent on your child's TA. If the SEN children need a widget programme to support speech and language access or a wellbeing room or more reading books suitable for their level all of that should come put of the total SEN budget. It also takes a lot of extra time planning for SEN so it might support the school's CPD for teachers on specific conditions to help them manage need more effectively or assess better.

It's a provision map because the school 'should' be able to provide it. However with the currently funding of schools, they simply can't fund anything outside the money covered by the child's own funding. Schools are stretched to the limit.

I've attached an estimate on TA salaries.

First of all children are not being ‘excluded easily’. The absolute opposite infact. A new directive is now stopping schools from excluding children unless alternative provision is made. Ie another school or educational facility has to be accepting the child or home education in place.

Secondly, and where I think your frustration really lies, I would focus on your own child’s EHCP and where their funding is being spent. Make a pest of yourself at school and make them realise you are monitoring the situation.

I don’t think anyone would disagree that the provision and funding for children with SEND is woefully inadequate. But there isn’t a money pot that will allow that to change any time soon.

A child who sets fire to a department, a child who stabs another, a child who burns down an equipment shed, a child who is violent, throws furniture, is a danger to others in the class and to the school. Accepting that they are ND and have challenges others may not have, doesn’t take away the fact that these are dangerous acts and can’t be acceptable.

Some years ago, we had an application to give a place to a child who used a wheelchair. That would have required the building of a lift, since, English, Maths and Science room were on on the first floor. The cost of building that lift was then £75,000. No matter how much you would want to accommodate, how, in practical and financial terms, is it possible?

The current system is not fit for purpose; increasing numbers of pupils with diagnosed SEN needs, a vastly different social landscape post-COVID and ever-increasing ways of communicating with technology mean that lots of children simply need to be taught in an entirely different way to the traditional methods. The entire system needs an overhaul. We need far more teachers train as SEN specialist, far more specialist schools and far more money. We are in one of the wealthiest countries on the planet. I don’t have a fantastic understanding of economics, but I’m pretty sure there must be enough in the kitty to make some vital changes.

Haven’t read the whole thread but - the example in your OP isn’t what is mean by being excluded from school. In your example, school was saying they couldn’t meet need. Whether they can or not is a different matter, but it’s not an example of a fixed term or permanent exclusion.

I think the opposite actually- it is far too difficult to exclude DC. Of course it should be a last resort and excluded DC need to be offered support, but there comes a time when the needs of the 29 other students to learn in a safe and calm environment need to be prioritised.

I assume there was another school close by that did have a lift or was able to create a downstairs timetable?

Because otherwise 5 years of taxi to a school further away might have cost as much as a lift!

There were other, larger schools, yes.

@ElizaGolightly

But the provision map is a legal document right?
If the outcomes can’t be achieved then it should never be written down that the funding is needed for a particular outcome?
For example : If x amount of time needs to be spent and funded for on planning and paperwork - that should be outlined in the map?
So - what is there - for example x amount of funding has been allocated for DC to read 10 minutes daily. The teacher wasn’t aware of this when we spoke last week, so this hasn’t been happening all term.
If it’s just not achievable, it shouldn’t be on the map/legal document - or funded for by the LA?

So a level 1 teaching assistant is £17 000. DC gets £16000 a year so that’s pretty close. I believe there is a level 1 TA in the class, but she doesn’t work purely with my DC. There are 4 adults in the class - all full time.

I think the issues will get worse as Labour have pinned a lot on inclusion but the funding seems to be focussed on capital works.

Yes, I was astonished when I read that they’d decided the best way to fix the issue was to update school buildings!

@Frowningprovidence

That will be my next step.

It’s a speech delay, but doesn’t seem to impact cognition. DC can read write, write, do maths. DC is very gentle and quiet. DC needs a prompt and tends to be reticent and shy. Very easily overlooked.

My hunch is that because DC is easy and achieving, is that they spend DC’s funding elsewhere. There are disruptive children who don’t have EHCP’s so it’s spent supporting them.

But I fought hard for the EHCP and I want DC to get maximum benefit while it is there.

Agree with this. Violent children should not be allowed to remain in school. At one time if a child attacked a teacher it meant instant exclusion. It still should.

I agree. I think some schools realise in advance that they won't be able to give the support that a child needs. It's wrong but I don't think the schools are to blame.

@Frowningprovidence

And the fact that they tried to exclude DC before DC’s placement makes my blood boil. I’m sorry - but to me ‘can’t meet needs’ is exclusion.

What someone is paid and what it costs to employ them is 2 different things. 'On costs' such as NI contribution, HR ,pension contributions, mandatory training etc add about 30% to employment costs. So the TA paid £17k will actually cost the school around 22-23k to employ. So if the LA is giving the school 16k, the school is having to top this up around 6-7k.
On top of this, the teacher will need to spend extra time differentiating the curriculum, writing reports, conducting the annual review. So in reality those costs now look more like 25k.
If your child needs a seperate room for any 1 to 1 interventions, if they need any specific equipment or teaching resources, that adds on.
If their TA is off sick or goes on mat leave, they have to pay extra for a replacement.
And of course your child is entitled to all of that. But the reality is that it probably costs the school nearly twice as much as the LA gives them to support your child, so schools are having to push back, as that money is taken from an already stretched budget.

@Bushmillsbabe Ok I get that, but this should be reflected in his provision map which is a legal document.

If it’s just not possible to achieve an outcome, don’t ask for funding for it. Be realistic.

Be very clear and realistic about how the money actually can be spent, otherwise everyone is confused.

DC did a show last week. Lasted about 40mins and DC had absolutely no adult support through the whole thing.

All buildings should ideally be accessible to people in wheelchairs. What if you got a science teacher in a wheelchair, how would they get up to the classroom?

There are some old buildings which just cannot be made accessible, but where it is possible it should be done, to meet equality law.

If you were teaching 30 years ago, you must be in your fifties.

School today is a world away from schools of the 1970s, when "shy" children went home for dinner and their granny helped out in the classroom.

Absolutely, EHCP's can be very vague on what the funding is, what its meant to acheive and how will be measured, which is not helpful for the child or the school.

If a provision is mentioned, it should be fully funded, and regularly reviewed