To think children are being excluded from school too easily?

[RibbyJumper]

Children and their welfare come first in any school - surely?

My DC had an EHCP before DC started reception. The school wanted to refuse DC’s placement. After a fight DC is in the mainstream school with extra funding (9 til 3 daily). DC can do Maths/Reading/Writing, has friends and is no behaviour problem. DC is very quiet and easily overlooked.

I’m so cross that they ever tried to exclude DC before DC had even started school.

DC is now in year 1 and there is no way DC gets his allocated provision. They’ve used it to fund other things.

However I now hear that the school have essentially excluded two other children in Year 1 in the afternoons. They stay for the morning and go home at lunchtime.

This is wrong isn’t it? What the hell is happening in our schools??

This

My friend was very grateful when her DS with SEN was permanently excluded from school as it meant she could get him a place in the school he needed.

I don’t think it’s too easy to exclude children in general otherwise the bullies and children in my DDs school who clearly need more than the school can provide would have been excluded a long time ago.

We have parents taking their children out of school because of the behaviour of other children. This year alone there has been over 20 children removed from the school because of the behaviour of 4 children. The school can’t exclude them so parents are walking, some with no places to go. The school has capacity for 105 children but has never been over 90 children at any one time. So 20 children being removed by parents is a significant number.

It's very challenging isn't it.

I work in schools and totally understand the 'what can they do' at an individual level.

But at a society level, we are basically saying it's difficult and expensive so these children can just be not supported.

There's over 5k chikdren with an ehcp who don't have a school at all. What future do they face.

So where do ‘these’ children go? And why is it ok to deprive them of an education?

School staff are doing an amazing job with record numbers of children with EHCPs and SEN. Well done to your son for settling so well. No doubt this is in part due to an excellent school environment that he is able to thrive in. This requires effort and care on their part.

There was clearly something in his profile that concerned them a lot. They wouldn’t raise concerns about their ability to meet his needs for no reason. As you can see, they have other children who come to the school and are really not ready to learn in a school environment. Such children are not excluded lightly. The details will be confidential, so you can’t judge from outside, but their removal may well be beneficial to your son.

I am sorry but you are clueless OP
I sit on Exclusion commmitees for a Primary and a Secondary school and you have no idea how high the bar is for permanent exclusion, most people would be very very shocked to find out (I was).
We ratified a school decision last Friday which The Head took very reluctantly - there had been over 50 violent incidents since September.
There is a long and complicated process to permanently exclude and if all boxes aren't ticked the child will be allowed back.
It can take literally years to get to the stage of permanent exclusion and so many interventions are tried first.

It's still exclusion, just via the back door. If an employer treated a disabled employee in the way some schools treat disabled children, there would be grounds for a constructive dismissal case.

Exactly, all children have a right to an education. It’s incredibly easy for those whose children are not facing challenges or barriers to come and say that SEN children are disrupting their child’s school life, when they’ve not been on the other foot. It’s not okay to say that due to lack of funding and staff these children should be thrown in the bin. Many have more to offer than can be realised, and just need the right support. We wouldn’t have half the amount of med school or Oxbridge applicants without ND people, some of whom may well have been challenging or different as young children. Those who need a special school shouldn’t be placed in mainstream to begin with.

Why are numbers of SEN children increasing?

They won’t be deprived of an education. The council has a statutory obligation to provide it. They may be moved to a mainstream school with facilities that make them better able to cope, or alternative provision (a private SEN school at the council’s expense or a PRU).

This is the big question. Lots of possible contributory factors.

1. More diagnosis (including a shifting in boundaries for diagnosis that comes with ongoing medical research).
2. More children surviving extreme premature and traumatic births, but being left with learning difficulties.
3. More older mothers / IVF (controversial but statistically true).
4. Diet - processed foods etc
5. a shift from outdoor play with others to indoor computer-based play.
6. … there will be others, all of which contribute a small amount, but are cumulatively significant.

The child is still entitled to an education though

My son has been in a special school since reception and I appreciate SEN provisions vary massively across the UK
But if a school cannot meet a child's needs than it us the LEA,s responsibility to find one that can even it that's out of area

Teaching is getting harder and harder. We are now, anecdotally, teaching classes where approx 30% of children have SEN of some kind. It's just not financially feasible to support them all with 121. I don't know what the solution is. But what I am seeing is 70% of children being ignored at the moment whilst all the focus and resource and funding is on the 30%.

Great list @Genevieva

Did the child's provision come with money to cover the building work?

None of which applies to my DC who is SEN.

I think personally it’s just simply more awareness of conditions. Back in the 90’s during my own early years autism wasn’t a thing unless it was rainman obvious. The quiet quirky kid was just that and nothing more, and many children had their needs unmet and are now suffering with huge burnout and anxiety. If there were behavioural issues, those children would just passed off as ‘naughty’ and there would be little to no understanding of why they couldn’t regulate themselves. I assume they used to just be excluded on the grounds of bad behaviour rather than the school unable to meet needs.

None of which need to. There have always been SEN kids. I was replying to the question about why there are more.

This is not the lived reality.

The legal obligations are not met. Because LAs can't

There are 5k plus chikdren with no school.

180 year 7 chikdren in my LA unplaced.

LAs will give access to 'online school' for a few hours a week to fulfill thier role.

something like a private school 'at the councils expense' really only happens after lenghty tribunals showing there isnt another school. Often with big gaps in provision.

The PRU in our area has only online spaces available and they aren't full time. Its like winningbtge lottery to get an in person place.

'Awareness of conditions' is 'more diagnosis' @QuickDenimDeer

Congrats, you’ve cherry picked one factor. And ignored the rest…

So this is a good example of both problems for schooling.

an EHCP will say that a child require 1:1 supprort full time, but only comes with 14k funding for the school which is no-where near enough to fund a full time TA. So school has to fund rest of the support through existing budget.

Then for the second example- the school will not have funding (or necessarily) time to undertake building work to accommodate additional needs for one child.

I'm not trying to fight with you @QuickDenimDeer
She said these are the possible contributing factors...

Maybe they are excluding these children in the afternoon so the other children in the class get some respite.

It really bothers me that the other children in the class are just expected to get on and have their entire education disrupted.

If an employee with SEN behaved like some children with SEN they would be in jail. Its not a valid comparison
Of course these children need help and sadly it just isn't there but some are so violent and disruptive that they are dangerous to have in mainstream school.

This is due to a massive and rapid shift in demand. A lot of investigation is clearly needed before the council is on the hook for £50,000 plus transport for a single child when they are strapped for cash. Prior to covid, the interim arrangements were in person, but it really is post-covid that we have seen numbers sky rocket. Many of these kids don’t have traditional SEN, but have debilitating school-based anxiety, so online education is the only thing they can access. It’s clearly a complex problem.

I absolutely agree with this and wish it was allowed to be talked about.

We have got so blinded with inclusion we have ignored it's impact.

'Including' a severely disruptive child (not from the op but the thread has moved on) has the result of excluding the other 29 children, who may well be sat in the classroom, but they're not learning anything.