People who think weight loss injections are cheating

[AuntieDote]

I've seen this viewpoint over multiple threads recently, and I'm just really curious to understand it a bit more because it makes no sense to me whatsoever.

What do you think people using the injections are cheating at?

As in - what's the competition and who are they gaining an unfair advantage over? What do you think the rules of being allowed to lose weight are/ should be?

Is it more important to you that overweight people/ those struggling with obesity lose the weight, become healthier, reduce the burden on the NHS, stop taking up more than their allocated amount of space in the world, or just stop doing whatever it is that upsets people so much about the existence of fat people -- or is it more important that they struggle and suffer whilst doing so?

Or would you secretly prefer them to remain fat so you can feel superior?

Is it that you feel you've worked really hard to either lose weight, keep it off or never put it on in the first place, so nobody else should be allowed to achieve this without the same amount of struggle?

What do you think the weight loss injections actually do, and do you not recognise that those on them are also doing all the usual things people who are trying to lose weight e.g. modify their eating, exercise etc? Does it not count that they're doing these things because it's made easier in some ways by the drug?

What types of weight loss support or tools are not 'cheating'? e.g. I used hypnosis once and it worked for a bit, to the point that I felt pretty much the same way I do with the injections i.e. reduction in food noise and compulsion to snack etc. It didn't last anything like as long, but it worked for a time - was that cheating?

Would it still be cheating if they weren't as effective as they are?

FWIW, I really couldn't care less if people think I'm cheating - who cares? Who does it impact only me and my bank balance? If someone said here, press this button and you'll be a healthy BMI overnight and stay there forever I'd press it with both hands and not give a shit about how anyone felt about it.

But it's just the logic of it that baffles me - I've never seen it as a competition and have never felt like getting to or being a healthy weight only counts if it's done in a certain way - I suppose I'm not much interested in what size anyone else is or what they do to get that way, so I can't imagine for a second ever thinking another person was 'cheating' - only ever being happy for them if they're happy and hopefully healthy too.

So, your knickers are a complete twist about a tiny proportion of people who are getting a drug that isn't medically necessary? Like those who insist on antibiotics when they're not needed?

Does this tiny number of people mean you think no one should get it privately? It's hard to understand your actual point amongst the frothing.

This is all really interesting thanks for sharing your knowledge. I’ve seen a lot of stuff pop up recently about the relationship between gut health and mental health but as someone with terrible gut health I think I’ve been actively avoiding reading it as I don’t want to hear the bad news 😅😆- ridiculously irrational I know.

That’s interesting about the affect of M on dopamine- I’ll take a look. I do remain a little bit skeptical that this is a primary or even significant pathway as to how the drug so effectively affects eating behaviour as it doesn’t resonate with my experience or understanding- it seems to be that hunger / appetite suppression (rather than dopamine reward) is the main mechanism although I take your point that everything is interlinked. I put on weight after having children and breastfeeding which made me intensely hungry all the time. I’m not sure that is linked to dopamine but maybe I’m wrong?

I also do worry that there is a dominant lay narrative related to obesity/ mental health/ addiction that is highly stigmatising and doesn’t really fit the reality of the disease - eg obese people lack the self control (and by extension moral worth!) that skinny people possess - they are addicts , junkies - just pursuing that next hit of dopamine! (Not that I think it’s ok / makes sense really to blame drug addicts for their addictions - but that’s another story) . It seems to me that obesity is caused by physiological/ hormonal / chemical differences between people that affect blood sugar/ digestion and in turn hunger / appetite . I’m not sure it’s helpful to think of these in terms of a mental health or psychological disorder or addiction. It is not psychologically disordered or an indication of addiction or a lack of self control (or moral worth 😅) to eat when you are experiencing intense hunger and I suspect that most of those those morally worthy skinny people would probably find they do just the same when faced with the same chemical/ hormonal / physiological conditions! I really do think it’s important to get this primary message across to challenge fatphobia, stigma and misunderstanding of obesity as a disease.

But these are all the rambling thoughts of a lay person , not a neuroendocinrologist.. 😅

Incorrect. They do need this medication medically. That's why it will be rolled out in NHS, but the logistics and high numbers mean they will do so over years.
But yes, it is medically indicated.

I’d not bother, it’s just overwhelming envy and resentment, the lack of logic is irrelevant, when someone is so consumed by envy and resentment, then frothing irrationally is par for the course. This poster for example seems to think the nhs have announced the roll out, for all overweight people , maybe taking up to 12 years due to the millions who will get it,and the logistics of that, as they’ve suddenly deviated into paying for drugs for vanity and folks who don’t need it.

you can’t argue with that kind of level of emotive irrationality, and you will never be able to understand it. It’s just someone with their own issues driving them.

Yes definately worried about long term side effects of all of those, although I don't think people take viagra daily. I don't take any regular meds,I even stopped the pill because I was worried about blood clots. I said I think it is useful for grade 3 obesity and T2 diabetes, but as a life style thing ? Yes I worry. Without anti- retrovirals HIV is a death sentence and there is no alternative treatment- I don't think they are comparable in anyway.

OK, lets equate it to those taking PREP then, to prevent HIV infection, even though there are other ways to avoid HIV infection...

Yes I think that's a fair comparision. The only caveat is that anti-retrovirals have been widely used for 25 years whereas these drugs are very new, again you don't take PREP daily usually.

Are you worried for other people, like the health of the world. Is it an anxiety thing, that you second guess medical scientists, the global regulatory authorities, as this is approved now in much of the western world, and feel you know better, are you a scientist ? Do you fret about other things?

This class of drugs have been on the market for 20 years as a treatment for diabetes. They have been in various trials for over 30 years. If longevity is your biggest issue then the safety profile of this drug is quite well understood.

Actually in diabetic populations it not only contributes to weight loss but it also has a whole host of other benifits including being one the only drugs that has been shown to delay and possibly even prevent alzheimers disease. The long term benefits of this drug drastically outweighs its side effects.

The is one of the biggest benefits of drug repurposing. From a safety/ toxicology standpoint you already have a large amount of data to asses use.

You don't take mounjaro daily. It's once a week. There are many people taking PREP multiple times a week - every time they have sex.

I wouldn't say I was especially anxious. I do think about things like diazepam and yes the SSRI s and how many people are "stuck" on them when perhaps non pharmaceutical measures could or should have been tried 1st ? I have an awful lot of comtemparies who have been on SSRI s for 20 years... As I said I understand they can be transformative for Grade 3 obesity ( BMI above 40) or type 2 diabetes which have gone beyond what diet or exercise can reach. But those taking it to stay slim- I'm not sure.

I thought it was ling acting so always in your system. Do you knowmany people taking PREP multiple times weekly ?

No it's not. After a diet the vast majority of obese individuals regain with interest. As others taking it have pointed out its not as easy as move more eat less. This doesn't work in 95% of cases long term as you are in a perpetual argument with your own hormones
Yes, indeed, perpetual arguement with your hormones. That doesn't mean you give up on the battle.

The facts are clear. The drug helps with reducing the hunger pangs. You don't feel the urge to eat, so you don't.

All this show that if it works so well, it's because the reason people are fat/obese is because they eat too much.

I'm sick of fat people assuming that only they get those desperate urge to eat. I have these all the time. Everyday I battle to say no to myself over and over. My mind has been telling me since I woke up that it really really needs mince pies. Every 15 minutes or so. It is indeed only my willpower AND the fact that I really really don't want to be fat that is stopping me going for them.

Oh would I love something that took away that daily battle. The very very rare times I don't think of food are heaven. The reality is I have two choices, continue as I am to battle (and at times feeling like I'm about to lose the cattle), or give up, let the pounds creep up until I do get obese and get that miracle drugs that will take away the pangs.

This is where the jealousy and resentment comes from.

How and when to take Pre-Exposure Prophylaxis (PrEP) - NHS

That might help you understand it better.

Perhaps not ideal to look solely at side effects, especially long term side effects in isolation from the benefits. Most people use transport because of the value of reaching the destination rather than never leaving home because of the risk of a road traffic accident and injury.

Urgh! Just reading this, makes me want to throw something.
It's all so fucking false, all of it.
"I don't want them to regain it all".
"They'll get loose skin"
They need to address the root cause".
"It's so dangerous. Theres so many side effects"
"It's just a quick fix"
"They just eat less of the same junk"
"They're not adjusting their lifestyle".

Why do people get to have a faux opinion? Why is it always such bollocks.
The main side effect of obesity is DEATH.
All diets give you loose skin, if you lose enough weight, and GLP1 loss isn't rapid. 1 to 2 lbs a week is the average. You don't just eat the same junk, because you can't. The drugs won't let you. You HAVE to re assess what you eat. You can't do anything but try and build new, better habits.
And you know what?
It's basically a hormone replacement treatment. Sometimes, we are not fat because we have trauma, or history, or are lazy, or mental. Maybe, just maybe, we are just actually, deficient in what it's that GLP1s replace.
Practically every fucking medication in the world can kill you, if you abuse it, often if you just take it, but you do, without a second thought, because it works, and a Dr tells you to. People never read the packet info.
The issue it TOTALLY, that people can't keep their noses out of fat people's business. Every person in the UK, taking these drugs LEGALLY, has met a list of criteria that a list that GphC registered pharmacists MUST adhere to, and take pains TO adhere to. Because if they don't, they'll be stopped, and NOBODY gets the drugs.
Whatever your opinion, it's irrelevant. The thinking and worrying had already been done, by qualified scientists, and doctors. By the people taking the drug. Nobody needs your opinion, your faux concern, and your condescension.

I'm going to have a cup of tea, with no sugar, and take a deep breath now.
I really must stop getting wound up by this. 🤦‍♀️

Fair enough I think we all understand it’s envy and resentment in the main now though , even the faux concern. As posted earlier, we get it, many thin people struggle. Hard, they haven’t admitted it before in the main, just behaved smug and superior, now the former fatties don’t need to struggle and will all be slim, and some slim folks are pissed as they need to keep struggling.

and same for some fat folks who can’t access the drugs, either due to money or fear, basically everyone struggling wants them, and those who can’t get them are lashing out,

You are completely right, but this sort of honesty doesn’t work on these threads, I said pretty much this earlier in the thread and it was completely ignored. Slimer people have to fight their cravings as well, it’s not easy staying in calorie deficit, sorry did I say cravings, I meant have to fight ‘food noise’ and ‘hormones’ that make people fat, not eating too much!

The issue it TOTALLY, that people can't keep their noses out of fat people's business.

This. ( And they want fat people to stay in their place- I.e. fat).

Nobody needs your opinion, your faux concern, and your condescension.

And this.

Do you know what drives food intake? It predominantly hormonal.

In obese populations the amount of GLP1 is dimished, its about half of what is is in a non obese population. Now we can have the chicken or the egg conversation. It is unclear if the lack of GLP1 causes obesity or if obesity causes the dimished expression of GLP1.

Interestingly if you put a population of rats into an obesogenic envorment roughly a quater end up obese. So not dissimilar to the human population. But it may be that that population is more susceptible to obesity.
If you have that level of food noise ( which I 100 % relate to) then it may be that you have hormone imbalance. Now currently it is not something doctors test but I think it should be. We should be more aware of normal ranges for hormones.

So if we know that GLP1 is truncated in the obese population and that deficit is not rescued by losing weight through diet then why wouldn't we replace that hormone. If someone has an underactive thyroid should we not replace the missing hormone?

Exercise is one thing that does rescue it so I think an increase in availability of sports facilties in youth is one if the key things that needs to be desperately done to reduce obesity in youth before they need medical intervention.

We know. And we understand.

The thing is, without the hormone, we have no willpower. We have no self control. Because we are perpetually fighting against our bodies. You are outstanding, and incredible, and we WANT to be you. We respect the effort that you put in. Each and every moment of our lives.
Trust me, in life, I am DRIVEN. I get what I want. If I can't afford it, or I can't do it, I find a way, and I work for what I want. Every time.
I've spent my whole life determined to not be fat. I haven't just sat back and shoved food into my mouth because I'm lazy. I don't sit around shoving great quantities of food in my mouth, full stop. I've tried every single diet and exercise plan. Every single one. But my body betrays me, every time. My genetics, my brain, my hormones.
Don't be angry, or jealous, or resentful. You have it, and you work hard for it. And we respect you for that. We can't have it without help, no matter what we do. Trust me, it makes US angry, and jealous and resentful.
We've found a way to be like you, and it's helping us forge new habits, lead new lifestyles, feel better, exercise, and be able to achieve what you do. Its not a push button cure. It's horrible and hard and bloody expensive. We respect you for being able to do it without help, because we know how hard it is. We're just lacking a vital component.
Be happy we have this one, lifechanging chance, because we don't want to be like this forever.

You are outstanding, and incredible, and we WANT to be you.

🤣

So you're saying because other people suffer other people don't deserve not to suffer?

Why is everyone arguing

If you're slim and are ABLE to fight food noise and cravings then surely you understand that other people are biologically different and CANT do it

They LITERALLY HAVE LESS GLP THAN YOU AND CAN'T

They have MORE food noise.

It's not a failure of WILLPOWER, they are different to you

Why the fuck is that so hard to comprehend?

It's the same as some people can run faster/lift more weight/process sugar differently/have completely different levels of hormones

@LOveLaughToasterBath Bingo!