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The FACTS about the farming IHT issues

343 replies

notanothernamechange24 · 26/11/2024 15:52

Decided to write a post to kind of myth bust a lot of what is being said around the agricultural Inheritance Tax issue. Because this issue is important to EVERYONE and will affect all of us.
It’s going to be a long post but please read it in full.

What has changed?
So with the budget the government has removed both APR relief and BPR relief from all businesses.
APR = Agricultural Property Relief - this covers the land, the buildings and the farmhouse.
BPR = Business Property Relief - this covers the machinery, equipment, livestock, consumables such as seed and fertiliser and crop in the ground.
Now the first million of combined assets from both APR and BPR is IHT free and anything over 1 million is taxed at 20%.
Under certain conditions it MIGHT be possible for SOME farms to get up to 3 million tax free. But that doesn't work for all. It’s a case of if your circumstances meet the exact criteria your ok if not you won’t get the full 3 million.

When the government talk about 500 farms per year being affected they are only talking about the APR proportion of the tax. They have deliberately excluded talking about the fact that BPR is also included and taxed.

The NFU are saying that 75% of family farms will be affected.

• it will also include a significant number of tenant farmers as they still will be affected by BPR.
BPR will also affect a number of other industries as well.
Haulage firms, Contractors and any businesses with high asset values comparative to income will be badly affected.

At the same time subsidies are being cut by 70% in some cases
Tax on fertiliser is going up by £50 per ton.
Tax on domestic vehicles is going up over 200%
NI for employers is going up.

Why shouldn't farmers pay tax like every other business?
Because quite simply farming doesn't work like any other business does. Most businesses work out their pricing by working out the cost of production + profit and tax. They are in control of who they sell to. When component prices go up so to does the selling price.
Farming doesn't work like that. Farmers have little to no control over prices.
The combination of global markets, supermarket competition and subsidized food control the prices.
At the same time input costs and yields are not controllable either. Weather conditions play a huge role in how good the harvest is. Unless you are able to grow all your feed for your livestock there can be huge variation year to year on feed prices.

Farming is a high asset value to low income business. It is unique purely because it is a rubbish business model. But it is a necessary business. Without it quite simply we would have no food.

Why do farms make so little return?

A lot of the foods you buy are subsidised by the government and has been for decades.
if we had to pay the full costs we would have an even more serious poverty issue than we have already.

After the war in the 1950s we had a serious issue with malnutrition and issues like rickets. Food was short and expensive. The country on its knees after the horrors of the 1940s. In order to combat that the government subsidised lots of essential foods. So the public were paying artificially low prices for things like milk. They then paid the farmers a subsidy to partially make up the shortfall

For context in the 1980s people were paying approximately 25% of their household income on average on food.
Today it is approximately 13% so half.

A pint of milk was equal to two pints of beer
Now beer per pint is 13 x more expensive than a pint of milk.

If people want farmers to go back to paying IHT then they will need to double what they pay for food.

Can you afford that? Can everyone you know afford it?

It’s important to note too that even with subsidies farmers still do not get the full value of what they produce.

What about people buying land to avoid paying tax?
The likes of Clarkson and Dyson buying land is a red herring. That land is still in the business production of food. It's doing what's needed.

Many many big landowners rent agricultural land out at very reasonable rates for tenant farmers. They do so because they don't need the money for the rent (it needs to cover its cost not much more) because the payoff comes in the form of reduced IHT.

I personally know a farmer who rented land for 17 years from a landowner. Then when landowner was considering selling up he sold it to the farmer at a really good price and guaranteed the farmers mortgage!

That said though this budget will do nothing to deter those who seek to reduce their IHT bill as it will still be the cheapest way of reducing IHT bill.

But farmers voted for Brexit
farmers voted for brexit in no greater numbers percentage wise than any other profession.
Don't make sweeping judgments without actually knowing the FACTS.

Farmers are no more responsible for brexit than any other profession

What about Gifting the farm?

The trouble is you don't know when you're going to die.
If you gift it on then you can't benefit from the farm in anyway after that. So you can't pass it on and remain living in the farmhouse for example. Even if the person you pass it on to is also living there.

And what if people don't die in the right order. Farming is considered to be the most dangerous profession in the UK now. What if the oldest generation pass it on and the younger generation die first?

Putting land in trusts is also complicated. For large landowners that is probably what they will do. So therefore the very wealthy will still avoid IHT.

But for the majority of farms putting it in a trust doesn’t work because once it’s in a trust you can’t borrow against it. So you can’t raise a loan or mortgage against it. This will slow or halt development and progression.

What are the potential consequences of this?
If we lose too many family farms due to this tax then they are likely gone forever. Other farmers won’t be able to buy up all the available land - they simply don’t have the money especially now.

If food production here reduces we become even more vulnerable to the instability of global markets.
At best it would mean price hikes at worst if there were to be another major war or global disaster we could have serious food shortages. You only have to think back to the panic in 2020 with covid to see the potential for chaos.

The predicted income from this tax is approximately 500million a year.
We are currently sending 536million a year abroad to develop agriculture in other parts of the world. Brazil being one of the largest recipients of our money - Brazil is the 11th largest economy in the world.

Stop sending more money abroad and leave farmers alone

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Seashellssanctuary · 26/11/2024 15:58

To be fair anybody who writes FACTS in their thread title should be swiftly ignored.

Regardless of my opinion your thread is also littered with opinion and not necessarily actual FACTS

TeenagersAngst · 26/11/2024 16:00

Apparently the great tax 'hero' Dan Neidle has done a reverse ferret on this tax and now thinks it should be amended.

skyeisthelimit · 26/11/2024 16:06

Well said.

MarketValveForks · 26/11/2024 16:13

Seashellssanctuary · 26/11/2024 15:58

To be fair anybody who writes FACTS in their thread title should be swiftly ignored.

Regardless of my opinion your thread is also littered with opinion and not necessarily actual FACTS

This

Birdscratch · 26/11/2024 16:17

If it’s not working as a business model then you need a different model. If family farms aren’t financially viable anymore then maybe we need bigger farms with fewer owners.

KoalaCalledKevin · 26/11/2024 16:17

Seashellssanctuary · 26/11/2024 15:58

To be fair anybody who writes FACTS in their thread title should be swiftly ignored.

Regardless of my opinion your thread is also littered with opinion and not necessarily actual FACTS

Agreed.

Balaclava1000 · 26/11/2024 16:21

Would it be feasible for working, profitable family owned and run farms to be exempted? But the land grabby, tax avoidance scheme ones are not able to benefit?

Easypeelersareterrible · 26/11/2024 16:23

Have the wealthy been using these breaks as a way to avoid IHT? YES! Do we need the wealthy to pay more IHT? YES!

Inheritance tax is mostly paid by the moderately wealthy. The elderly who due to house price inflation live in a house worth over £1m when they die. The really wealthy buy up farmland and shares on AIM to avoid it. These breaks NEED to go but a way needs to be found to maintain them for proper farmers.

notanothernamechange24 · 26/11/2024 16:26

Balaclava1000 · 26/11/2024 16:21

Would it be feasible for working, profitable family owned and run farms to be exempted? But the land grabby, tax avoidance scheme ones are not able to benefit?

Yes by setting the threshold higher.

OP posts:
ExtraOnions · 26/11/2024 16:27

So Farmers shouod pay different tax as there are “critical” to the country.

So should Doctors, Nurses, Carers, Fire Fighters, Police officers, also get a different tax regime, or are they not critical ?

People owning large swathes of land to avoid tax is not a red-herring, it’s a FACT .. your Poster Boy Clarkson even said it was.

Estates worth up to £3,000,000 can be passed on Tax-Free .. I wish I had £3,000,000 in assets to pass to my kids.

Where IHT applies Farmers will still pay 50% less than anyone else (there is your special treatment)

£5bn is being invested into Farming over the next 2 years - to proper Farmers, not the tax-dodging rich boys,

Brexit .. Farmers have lost hundred of millions due to Brexit, but not seen them protesting about that

HeadNorth · 26/11/2024 16:29

ExtraOnions · 26/11/2024 16:27

So Farmers shouod pay different tax as there are “critical” to the country.

So should Doctors, Nurses, Carers, Fire Fighters, Police officers, also get a different tax regime, or are they not critical ?

People owning large swathes of land to avoid tax is not a red-herring, it’s a FACT .. your Poster Boy Clarkson even said it was.

Estates worth up to £3,000,000 can be passed on Tax-Free .. I wish I had £3,000,000 in assets to pass to my kids.

Where IHT applies Farmers will still pay 50% less than anyone else (there is your special treatment)

£5bn is being invested into Farming over the next 2 years - to proper Farmers, not the tax-dodging rich boys,

Brexit .. Farmers have lost hundred of millions due to Brexit, but not seen them protesting about that

Good post - I prefer your FACTS 😁

notanothernamechange24 · 26/11/2024 16:29

Easypeelersareterrible · 26/11/2024 16:23

Have the wealthy been using these breaks as a way to avoid IHT? YES! Do we need the wealthy to pay more IHT? YES!

Inheritance tax is mostly paid by the moderately wealthy. The elderly who due to house price inflation live in a house worth over £1m when they die. The really wealthy buy up farmland and shares on AIM to avoid it. These breaks NEED to go but a way needs to be found to maintain them for proper farmers.

Do we need the wealthy to own land that is farmed by others and produces food? Yes we do.
You are completely undervaluing the need for tenanted farm land which allows those without an inheritance to farm.

OP posts:
RubberyChicken · 26/11/2024 16:30

A pint of milk wasn't equal to the price of two pints on the 80's. I remember a pint was 90p in the late 80's but don't think milk was £1.80 a pint then

Dontcallmescarface · 26/11/2024 16:30

You missed the FACT that farmers, unlike everybody else, have 10 years to pay the IHT owed.

unsync · 26/11/2024 16:34

@notanothernamechange24 I'm afraid you're wasting your time. We live in a time of envy. People don't want to understand the issues, they just see land ownership, big vehicles etc and equate that with excess wealth which seems to trigger a lot of people. I do wonder how many of them have any experience of farming other than possibly going for a nice walk in the countryside (which of course only exists in that way because of farming).

I worked for a farm management company which was a real eye opener to just how tight margins are and how many external variables are involved.

I've also worked on the supply side for one of the big supermarkets, sharp practice with regard to pricing and their treatment of their suppliers doesn't even begin to cover it. Every little might help, but to this day, I would rather go without than give them any of my money.

Tulipvase · 26/11/2024 16:35

Surely there is a way of proving whether land is actually being farmed and not just people saying it is in order to avoid paying IHT?

notanothernamechange24 · 26/11/2024 16:41

So should Doctors, Nurses, Carers, Fire Fighters, Police officers, also get a different tax regime, or are they not critical ?

Most of them are fairly low paid positions. Many of them are unlikely to have assets over the thresholds already in place for individuals.

At present somewhere between 4 - 7% of estates are affected by IHT.
Compared to an estimated 75% of farms going forwards.

The repayments even spread over 10 years will be more than the income of the farm in any given year. For many it would take 15-20 years to pay back if ALL profits were paid in tax.

For the vast majority of people inheriting they are not faced with loosing their home, their business and their jobs in order to pay the tax bill.

This is not about wanting special treatment it's about wanting things to be fair. And for family farms to continue to be viabl

OP posts:
quantumbutterfly · 26/11/2024 16:41

notanothernamechange24 · 26/11/2024 15:52

Decided to write a post to kind of myth bust a lot of what is being said around the agricultural Inheritance Tax issue. Because this issue is important to EVERYONE and will affect all of us.
It’s going to be a long post but please read it in full.

What has changed?
So with the budget the government has removed both APR relief and BPR relief from all businesses.
APR = Agricultural Property Relief - this covers the land, the buildings and the farmhouse.
BPR = Business Property Relief - this covers the machinery, equipment, livestock, consumables such as seed and fertiliser and crop in the ground.
Now the first million of combined assets from both APR and BPR is IHT free and anything over 1 million is taxed at 20%.
Under certain conditions it MIGHT be possible for SOME farms to get up to 3 million tax free. But that doesn't work for all. It’s a case of if your circumstances meet the exact criteria your ok if not you won’t get the full 3 million.

When the government talk about 500 farms per year being affected they are only talking about the APR proportion of the tax. They have deliberately excluded talking about the fact that BPR is also included and taxed.

The NFU are saying that 75% of family farms will be affected.

• it will also include a significant number of tenant farmers as they still will be affected by BPR.
BPR will also affect a number of other industries as well.
Haulage firms, Contractors and any businesses with high asset values comparative to income will be badly affected.

At the same time subsidies are being cut by 70% in some cases
Tax on fertiliser is going up by £50 per ton.
Tax on domestic vehicles is going up over 200%
NI for employers is going up.

Why shouldn't farmers pay tax like every other business?
Because quite simply farming doesn't work like any other business does. Most businesses work out their pricing by working out the cost of production + profit and tax. They are in control of who they sell to. When component prices go up so to does the selling price.
Farming doesn't work like that. Farmers have little to no control over prices.
The combination of global markets, supermarket competition and subsidized food control the prices.
At the same time input costs and yields are not controllable either. Weather conditions play a huge role in how good the harvest is. Unless you are able to grow all your feed for your livestock there can be huge variation year to year on feed prices.

Farming is a high asset value to low income business. It is unique purely because it is a rubbish business model. But it is a necessary business. Without it quite simply we would have no food.

Why do farms make so little return?

A lot of the foods you buy are subsidised by the government and has been for decades.
if we had to pay the full costs we would have an even more serious poverty issue than we have already.

After the war in the 1950s we had a serious issue with malnutrition and issues like rickets. Food was short and expensive. The country on its knees after the horrors of the 1940s. In order to combat that the government subsidised lots of essential foods. So the public were paying artificially low prices for things like milk. They then paid the farmers a subsidy to partially make up the shortfall

For context in the 1980s people were paying approximately 25% of their household income on average on food.
Today it is approximately 13% so half.

A pint of milk was equal to two pints of beer
Now beer per pint is 13 x more expensive than a pint of milk.

If people want farmers to go back to paying IHT then they will need to double what they pay for food.

Can you afford that? Can everyone you know afford it?

It’s important to note too that even with subsidies farmers still do not get the full value of what they produce.

What about people buying land to avoid paying tax?
The likes of Clarkson and Dyson buying land is a red herring. That land is still in the business production of food. It's doing what's needed.

Many many big landowners rent agricultural land out at very reasonable rates for tenant farmers. They do so because they don't need the money for the rent (it needs to cover its cost not much more) because the payoff comes in the form of reduced IHT.

I personally know a farmer who rented land for 17 years from a landowner. Then when landowner was considering selling up he sold it to the farmer at a really good price and guaranteed the farmers mortgage!

That said though this budget will do nothing to deter those who seek to reduce their IHT bill as it will still be the cheapest way of reducing IHT bill.

But farmers voted for Brexit
farmers voted for brexit in no greater numbers percentage wise than any other profession.
Don't make sweeping judgments without actually knowing the FACTS.

Farmers are no more responsible for brexit than any other profession

What about Gifting the farm?

The trouble is you don't know when you're going to die.
If you gift it on then you can't benefit from the farm in anyway after that. So you can't pass it on and remain living in the farmhouse for example. Even if the person you pass it on to is also living there.

And what if people don't die in the right order. Farming is considered to be the most dangerous profession in the UK now. What if the oldest generation pass it on and the younger generation die first?

Putting land in trusts is also complicated. For large landowners that is probably what they will do. So therefore the very wealthy will still avoid IHT.

But for the majority of farms putting it in a trust doesn’t work because once it’s in a trust you can’t borrow against it. So you can’t raise a loan or mortgage against it. This will slow or halt development and progression.

What are the potential consequences of this?
If we lose too many family farms due to this tax then they are likely gone forever. Other farmers won’t be able to buy up all the available land - they simply don’t have the money especially now.

If food production here reduces we become even more vulnerable to the instability of global markets.
At best it would mean price hikes at worst if there were to be another major war or global disaster we could have serious food shortages. You only have to think back to the panic in 2020 with covid to see the potential for chaos.

The predicted income from this tax is approximately 500million a year.
We are currently sending 536million a year abroad to develop agriculture in other parts of the world. Brazil being one of the largest recipients of our money - Brazil is the 11th largest economy in the world.

Stop sending more money abroad and leave farmers alone

There are a few things we can't live without, one of them is food. I'm stunned that people can't join the dots on this. As for pp saying we need more big farms and fewer small farms, your food supply is already controlled by a few really big players, unless you grow, raise or hunt your own.
Be careful what you wish for.

PrincessAnne4Eva · 26/11/2024 16:42

I fully agree with you OP. And it's telling that those who don't are coming up with things that are just plain silly in a wooly attempt to counter what you're saying. "Whatabout Doctors" ffs. What doctor needs to own 100+ acres to do their job?

Another thing to note is that I've never met a farmer who has retired, and most of the ones I know plan to work until death. So passing the farm on early is a silly plan.

Easypeelersareterrible · 26/11/2024 16:43

notanothernamechange24 · 26/11/2024 16:29

Do we need the wealthy to own land that is farmed by others and produces food? Yes we do.
You are completely undervaluing the need for tenanted farm land which allows those without an inheritance to farm.

Why do we need them to own the land? Why can’t we stop the tax breaks which will cause the value of the land to crash which will allow actual farmers to buy it?

RedPony1 · 26/11/2024 16:44

@unsync
" I'm afraid you're wasting your time. We live in a time of envy. People don't want to understand the issues, they just see land ownership, big vehicles etc and equate that with excess wealth which seems to trigger a lot of people. "

Absolutely!! i have never, and will never understand the jealousy around generational wealth, or even earned wealth! Baffles me.

ExtraOnions · 26/11/2024 16:45

notanothernamechange24 · 26/11/2024 16:41

So should Doctors, Nurses, Carers, Fire Fighters, Police officers, also get a different tax regime, or are they not critical ?

Most of them are fairly low paid positions. Many of them are unlikely to have assets over the thresholds already in place for individuals.

At present somewhere between 4 - 7% of estates are affected by IHT.
Compared to an estimated 75% of farms going forwards.

The repayments even spread over 10 years will be more than the income of the farm in any given year. For many it would take 15-20 years to pay back if ALL profits were paid in tax.

For the vast majority of people inheriting they are not faced with loosing their home, their business and their jobs in order to pay the tax bill.

This is not about wanting special treatment it's about wanting things to be fair. And for family farms to continue to be viabl

What’s fair is that you pay the same tax, at the same levels as everybody else.

I wasn’t suggesting Nurses etc would have assets of over £3m, I was suggesting that if we used the idea that people should have different tax rules as they are “critical” .. why should it just be Farmers in these critical roles ?

Summernightsinthe21stcentury · 26/11/2024 16:48

Correct doctors do not need to own land but their families often can fall into the bracket paying IHT at 40% immediately on death

BarbaraHoward · 26/11/2024 16:50

RedPony1 · 26/11/2024 16:44

@unsync
" I'm afraid you're wasting your time. We live in a time of envy. People don't want to understand the issues, they just see land ownership, big vehicles etc and equate that with excess wealth which seems to trigger a lot of people. "

Absolutely!! i have never, and will never understand the jealousy around generational wealth, or even earned wealth! Baffles me.

Inequality around inherited wealth is one of the biggest inequalities in the UK.

Sorry OP, I'm pro inheritance tax and anti exemptions for anyone.

Summernightsinthe21stcentury · 26/11/2024 16:50

I am not in the least envious, I would rather eat my hat than be a farmer, I appreciate it is a lot of very hard work in all weathers.
But I also work hard and so does my husband in fairly critical roles and our children will get a bill when we die. At 40%.