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The FACTS about the farming IHT issues

343 replies

notanothernamechange24 · 26/11/2024 15:52

Decided to write a post to kind of myth bust a lot of what is being said around the agricultural Inheritance Tax issue. Because this issue is important to EVERYONE and will affect all of us.
It’s going to be a long post but please read it in full.

What has changed?
So with the budget the government has removed both APR relief and BPR relief from all businesses.
APR = Agricultural Property Relief - this covers the land, the buildings and the farmhouse.
BPR = Business Property Relief - this covers the machinery, equipment, livestock, consumables such as seed and fertiliser and crop in the ground.
Now the first million of combined assets from both APR and BPR is IHT free and anything over 1 million is taxed at 20%.
Under certain conditions it MIGHT be possible for SOME farms to get up to 3 million tax free. But that doesn't work for all. It’s a case of if your circumstances meet the exact criteria your ok if not you won’t get the full 3 million.

When the government talk about 500 farms per year being affected they are only talking about the APR proportion of the tax. They have deliberately excluded talking about the fact that BPR is also included and taxed.

The NFU are saying that 75% of family farms will be affected.

• it will also include a significant number of tenant farmers as they still will be affected by BPR.
BPR will also affect a number of other industries as well.
Haulage firms, Contractors and any businesses with high asset values comparative to income will be badly affected.

At the same time subsidies are being cut by 70% in some cases
Tax on fertiliser is going up by £50 per ton.
Tax on domestic vehicles is going up over 200%
NI for employers is going up.

Why shouldn't farmers pay tax like every other business?
Because quite simply farming doesn't work like any other business does. Most businesses work out their pricing by working out the cost of production + profit and tax. They are in control of who they sell to. When component prices go up so to does the selling price.
Farming doesn't work like that. Farmers have little to no control over prices.
The combination of global markets, supermarket competition and subsidized food control the prices.
At the same time input costs and yields are not controllable either. Weather conditions play a huge role in how good the harvest is. Unless you are able to grow all your feed for your livestock there can be huge variation year to year on feed prices.

Farming is a high asset value to low income business. It is unique purely because it is a rubbish business model. But it is a necessary business. Without it quite simply we would have no food.

Why do farms make so little return?

A lot of the foods you buy are subsidised by the government and has been for decades.
if we had to pay the full costs we would have an even more serious poverty issue than we have already.

After the war in the 1950s we had a serious issue with malnutrition and issues like rickets. Food was short and expensive. The country on its knees after the horrors of the 1940s. In order to combat that the government subsidised lots of essential foods. So the public were paying artificially low prices for things like milk. They then paid the farmers a subsidy to partially make up the shortfall

For context in the 1980s people were paying approximately 25% of their household income on average on food.
Today it is approximately 13% so half.

A pint of milk was equal to two pints of beer
Now beer per pint is 13 x more expensive than a pint of milk.

If people want farmers to go back to paying IHT then they will need to double what they pay for food.

Can you afford that? Can everyone you know afford it?

It’s important to note too that even with subsidies farmers still do not get the full value of what they produce.

What about people buying land to avoid paying tax?
The likes of Clarkson and Dyson buying land is a red herring. That land is still in the business production of food. It's doing what's needed.

Many many big landowners rent agricultural land out at very reasonable rates for tenant farmers. They do so because they don't need the money for the rent (it needs to cover its cost not much more) because the payoff comes in the form of reduced IHT.

I personally know a farmer who rented land for 17 years from a landowner. Then when landowner was considering selling up he sold it to the farmer at a really good price and guaranteed the farmers mortgage!

That said though this budget will do nothing to deter those who seek to reduce their IHT bill as it will still be the cheapest way of reducing IHT bill.

But farmers voted for Brexit
farmers voted for brexit in no greater numbers percentage wise than any other profession.
Don't make sweeping judgments without actually knowing the FACTS.

Farmers are no more responsible for brexit than any other profession

What about Gifting the farm?

The trouble is you don't know when you're going to die.
If you gift it on then you can't benefit from the farm in anyway after that. So you can't pass it on and remain living in the farmhouse for example. Even if the person you pass it on to is also living there.

And what if people don't die in the right order. Farming is considered to be the most dangerous profession in the UK now. What if the oldest generation pass it on and the younger generation die first?

Putting land in trusts is also complicated. For large landowners that is probably what they will do. So therefore the very wealthy will still avoid IHT.

But for the majority of farms putting it in a trust doesn’t work because once it’s in a trust you can’t borrow against it. So you can’t raise a loan or mortgage against it. This will slow or halt development and progression.

What are the potential consequences of this?
If we lose too many family farms due to this tax then they are likely gone forever. Other farmers won’t be able to buy up all the available land - they simply don’t have the money especially now.

If food production here reduces we become even more vulnerable to the instability of global markets.
At best it would mean price hikes at worst if there were to be another major war or global disaster we could have serious food shortages. You only have to think back to the panic in 2020 with covid to see the potential for chaos.

The predicted income from this tax is approximately 500million a year.
We are currently sending 536million a year abroad to develop agriculture in other parts of the world. Brazil being one of the largest recipients of our money - Brazil is the 11th largest economy in the world.

Stop sending more money abroad and leave farmers alone

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Summernightsinthe21stcentury · 26/11/2024 18:01

@EasternStandard I have already said I am not envious but you do you 😂

quantumbutterfly · 26/11/2024 18:02

Summernightsinthe21stcentury · 26/11/2024 17:57

In 1985 we were not producing TV for the mass market. I know who invented the damn thing you know.

Actually in the UK we still were.

Summernightsinthe21stcentury · 26/11/2024 18:03

Ok I appreciate it is time for me to give up.

Another2Cats · 26/11/2024 18:04

CompleteOvaryAction · 26/11/2024 17:08

Everyone can spread iHT on non-liquid assets over ten years. You (and farmers) would also pay interest on the instalments at 7.25%

The intention is that farmers will not have to pay interest.

Ihateboris · 26/11/2024 18:05

I think it's about time the VERY wealthy started paying their fair share. See link regarding Duke of Westminster! Also, the bloody Royal Family should start coughing up.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/duke-westminster-hugh-grosvenor-avoids-32983804

SometimesCalmPerson · 26/11/2024 18:05

There’s a lot of opinion mixed into those cherry picked facts.

The vast majority of the arguments against the tax changes already apply to other people who have to pay inheritance tax. Personally I think inheritance tax is unfair in the way it’s implemented, but we either tax people who have unearned wealth upon death or we don’t. The children of farmers don’t deserve a house and a job handed to them more than anyone else.

The only argument that holds any weight is that society needs land to be farmed, but family farmers passing on land throughout generations isn’t the only way of achieving that.

Littlemissgobby · 26/11/2024 18:09

Anybody listening to Andrew Marr on lbc? Right now, he has just had some sort of professor on that says you can look at the data and you can actually find out who is buying the farms to be venture capitalist and who is on the farm who are real genuine farmers.
He said he can now see in the data who they could go after and who they shouldn't.

skippy67 · 26/11/2024 18:10

Thanks for the essay. I fully support the government on this. Farmers should pay their share of tax, just like everyone else.

Menopausalsourpuss · 26/11/2024 18:11

I think, like many on this thread, Labour don't understand food production (or business in general - most of them have never done anything productive in their life). Or it could be this is all about the likes of Bill Gates and Blackrock controlling our food supply as some have said. Either way its another terrible policy.

40YearOldDad · 26/11/2024 18:12

notanothernamechange24 · 26/11/2024 18:01

@40YearOldDad there is strong evidence that it was about the budget yes. It was expected that the changes would be brought in immediately from the day of the budget. Farmers heard about 10 days before the budget that this was highly likely to happen.

I'm sure it was, but it was as much to do with his sick wife as it was the IHT changes - You've been fed a story and ran away with it, to come on a public forum and say at least three people have committed suicide as a result of the budget is bold and implies that it's more than three people but all I've read is a sad story about a man that wasn't being supported and had more than one stress in his life who has taken his life.

I'll wait for any links to the others that have killed themselves as a result of the budget.

EasternStandard · 26/11/2024 18:12

skippy67 · 26/11/2024 18:10

Thanks for the essay. I fully support the government on this. Farmers should pay their share of tax, just like everyone else.

Don't you benefit from higher food security?

JusteanBiscuits · 26/11/2024 18:14

So, roughly half of all farms net worth is more than £1.5m (remember, the £1m allowance is on top of the normal allowance). The average net worth for a farm in the UK is £2.2m.

So, the average farming family would need to pay half rate IHT, spread over ten years interest free, so about the same amount as a 3 bed terrace in the south east. But those living in 4 bed terraces will be paying 40% and not have ten years interest free.

Also, if a farmer ends up in a care home they're not expected to sell any of their land etc to pay for it.

derxa · 26/11/2024 18:18

40YearOldDad · 26/11/2024 18:12

I'm sure it was, but it was as much to do with his sick wife as it was the IHT changes - You've been fed a story and ran away with it, to come on a public forum and say at least three people have committed suicide as a result of the budget is bold and implies that it's more than three people but all I've read is a sad story about a man that wasn't being supported and had more than one stress in his life who has taken his life.

I'll wait for any links to the others that have killed themselves as a result of the budget.

You’re full of the milk of human kindness aren’t you. This IHT is just the last straw for us. Higher costs in fertiliser feed contractors etc. Supermarket squeeze on prices. Flooding in some areas. So many factors out of our control.

TeenagersAngst · 26/11/2024 18:19

Diomi · 26/11/2024 17:41

So far no one has come up with a convincing argument in favour of this policy.

Hardly any money will be raised, some people’s lives and livelihoods will be destroyed and we will lose some more of our farming industry.

No one seems to have been able to say how the benefits outweigh the negatives. What are the benefits?

Because it's 'fairer' - like all the worst policies ever introduced.

WateryBottle · 26/11/2024 18:21

JusteanBiscuits · 26/11/2024 18:14

So, roughly half of all farms net worth is more than £1.5m (remember, the £1m allowance is on top of the normal allowance). The average net worth for a farm in the UK is £2.2m.

So, the average farming family would need to pay half rate IHT, spread over ten years interest free, so about the same amount as a 3 bed terrace in the south east. But those living in 4 bed terraces will be paying 40% and not have ten years interest free.

Also, if a farmer ends up in a care home they're not expected to sell any of their land etc to pay for it.

It’s not really about it being fair on farmers or not. It’s about making this policy making farming unviable, which is all of our problem.

I seriously don’t understand why people are so glib about a policy which is likely to adversely affect our food security.

I certainly won’t be thinking “Yeah but thank god they didn't get out of IHT” when I’m staring at empty shelves in the supermarket.

40YearOldDad · 26/11/2024 18:27

derxa · 26/11/2024 18:18

You’re full of the milk of human kindness aren’t you. This IHT is just the last straw for us. Higher costs in fertiliser feed contractors etc. Supermarket squeeze on prices. Flooding in some areas. So many factors out of our control.

I'm very compassionate, but it's been stated as a FACT that he killed himself as a direct result of the budget, which is just wrong.

If I were an utter bastard, I'd say his wife now gets free care as they won't be forced to sell their family home to pay for her care, unlike hundreds of thousands who go into care with assets over X amount.

These average farmers that people are so riled up against will never be impacted by this policy; 56% of farmland sold last year was to non farmers.

While non-farmers were responsible for less than a third of farmland purchases in 2010, by last year this had risen to 56 per cent.

in the last year alone, 400,000 hectares (988,422 acres) of agricultural land has been taken out of use for farming.

The analysis is linking this to financial advice that recommends the potential tax breaks of investing in farmland.

Farmers 'squeezed out' of agricultural land market by millionaires

Farmers 'squeezed out' of agricultural land market by millionaires

The trend is being linked to financial advice that recommends the potential tax breaks of investing in farmland.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/farmers-squeezed-out-of-agricultural-land-market-by-millionaires-385977/

cheerypip · 26/11/2024 18:28

What about the suggestion that genuine multigenerational family farms could (or indeed already are) structure on a partnership basis - each partner would have their own IHT allowance ... ?

Bananamanlovesyou · 26/11/2024 18:28

The figure of 75 per cent of farms being affected. Are they all impacted to the same degree or is it a sliding scale?

notanothernamechange24 · 26/11/2024 18:40

JusteanBiscuits · 26/11/2024 18:14

So, roughly half of all farms net worth is more than £1.5m (remember, the £1m allowance is on top of the normal allowance). The average net worth for a farm in the UK is £2.2m.

So, the average farming family would need to pay half rate IHT, spread over ten years interest free, so about the same amount as a 3 bed terrace in the south east. But those living in 4 bed terraces will be paying 40% and not have ten years interest free.

Also, if a farmer ends up in a care home they're not expected to sell any of their land etc to pay for it.

The average you quote includes small holdings and small parcels of land that are not producing food on scale or providing a viable income for the owner.

There will be few viable farms that are valued below 2 million

OP posts:
derxa · 26/11/2024 18:44

40YearOldDad · 26/11/2024 18:27

I'm very compassionate, but it's been stated as a FACT that he killed himself as a direct result of the budget, which is just wrong.

If I were an utter bastard, I'd say his wife now gets free care as they won't be forced to sell their family home to pay for her care, unlike hundreds of thousands who go into care with assets over X amount.

These average farmers that people are so riled up against will never be impacted by this policy; 56% of farmland sold last year was to non farmers.

While non-farmers were responsible for less than a third of farmland purchases in 2010, by last year this had risen to 56 per cent.

in the last year alone, 400,000 hectares (988,422 acres) of agricultural land has been taken out of use for farming.

The analysis is linking this to financial advice that recommends the potential tax breaks of investing in farmland.

Farmers 'squeezed out' of agricultural land market by millionaires

Edited

Thanks for that Keit

derxa · 26/11/2024 18:51

Keir that should say

40YearOldDad · 26/11/2024 18:52

derxa · 26/11/2024 18:44

Thanks for that Keit

I'll edit this then.. 😂

MarkingBad · 26/11/2024 18:56

Too many people are focussing on the wrong people you are being distracted on purpose.

The big reason this is a shit policy is because it still gives private non-farming investors 20% off IHT on land so is still a tax break for them while at the same time it will damage the ability of SME farms in high land value areas to continue to operate.

So the land prices will continue to remain high and prevent younger entrants to farming and those operating on minimal profit to continue to provide food while the non-farming private investors still get good value out of their tax breaks.

This is a shit policy and they know it.

Labour PR and their fave media have gone into overdrive to make out it's all the farmers faults and not because they made a policy that still helps their rich donors while looking like they are doing something positive for the country and sticking it to the rich. They aren't and the toilet paper dragging on their shoe is visible to anyone who is actually looking.

Don't forget folks this is isn't even raising a substantial amount of money. It's about getting rid of farms for housing and new town development and moving food production increasingly more abroad to achieve NetZero. It's about courting their very wealthy donors while looking like they are doing something for the workers.

Don't let the politics of envy distract you, follow the money. This policy changes very little for those with money and everything for those that don't.

EuclidianGeometryFan · 26/11/2024 19:02

lljkk · 26/11/2024 17:55

How did farms manage before 100% tax relief, just 30 years ago?

https://www.pumptax.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/EC-BPR-reform.pdf

@notanothernamechange24
Are you able to answer this? what happened to multi-generational farms before the IHT break came in?

MarkingBad · 26/11/2024 19:06

EuclidianGeometryFan · 26/11/2024 19:02

@notanothernamechange24
Are you able to answer this? what happened to multi-generational farms before the IHT break came in?

I don't know but I can.

We paid a bigger percentage of our wages for food.

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