Did anybody see the Panaroma about binge drinking last night?

[Orangelight23]

Real eye opener for me. Women in their 30s being diagnosed with liver disease. I must admit I have myself been drawn into wine culture and drinking wine to relax.

It's made me have a real think about my alcohol intake to be honest.

I take issue with this. Chocolate bars haven't supersized, they're always getting smaller! A Yorkie was 70g in the 2000's - now they're 46g.

Oh come on. Is women drinking in public NOT okay then?

And tbh the worry seems to be the habitual daily drinking rather than the once-in-a-while bingers, as unhealthy as that is. At least your liver is recovering in between.

I think the 14 units is a compromise between the alcohol industry, the department of health and the NHS, bit like the 5 a day.

I really don't think people drinking up to the 14 units need to be panicking. It's a pretty conservative limit, much lower than lots of Europe. Because the UK is a nation of problem drinkers.

@slawslaw

Oh come on. Is women drinking in public NOT okay then?

I'm not coming anywhere close to saying women drinking in public is not OK. I believe women can and should be able to do whatever men do in any walk of life. I have drunk in public many many times and will do so again.

But I also think its not an accident that the significant rise in alcohol-related deaths and particularly the rise in alcohol issues affecting women has roughly tracked a decline in the stigma associated with women and alcohol consumption in society.

There are plenty of things which have accompanied progress in women's equality which overall are a good thing for society but which have had some negative side effects. I don't think it makes you a bad feminist, for example, for admitting that while free access to abortion is an unmitigated good, abortion can be an unpleasant and distressing experience. Maybe not a good analogy but you know what I'm saying.

At some point in the second half of the 20th century the taboo around women going into pubs fell away and it became completely acceptable (as it should have). I have noticed this in my lifetime. And at some point the people who market alcohol cottoned on to this and started using "lifestyle" to sell alcohol in much the same way that they sold Bodyform: a symbol of liberation and autonomy. I'm sure that's not the only factor. But I do have a hunch the two things are connected.

Surely there must be some people on here drinking more than 3 bottles a week?

I'm sure there are and these are largely the people saying things like "I want to live a good life, not a long life" and "On Mumsnet if you drink more than once a year you're an alcoholic." And other such denialist canards.

Looking it up the 14 units is slightly random, but it was changed in 2016 from 21 units for men and 14 for women as there were concerns it was encouraging daily drinking. The rationale given in the article I read said that 14 units (which is 7 medium glasses of wine at around 11%) gives a 1% risk of dying of alcohol-related causes, which is around the same as driving a car and other everyday risks.

The risk is dose-response related, so the more you drink, the more the risk rises.

Interestingly you can drink 2 shots of spirits x 7, so a large G and T for the same as the wine- I think wine is often deceptively strong and it's very easy to have more than that one medium glass a day, say two or three, and then the medium glass is a large and then the whole thing is much more than you think.

The stuff on women drinking is interesting. It's also the case that the alcohol industry like heavy drinkers, so they have a vested interest in calling for 'moderation' because they know that in fact many people either don't know how or can't moderate their drinking. Keeping to one moderate (which now seems small) glass a day is quite hard and they know this. People who drink, say, twice a month out with friends are not going to be good earners for them, let alone teetotallers.

At one point wine was cheaper than water in one of the supermarkets.

My drinking is creeping up to that, and on holidays etc I would probably drink more. This was 100% a wake up call and I will go sober for a bit before Xmas/parties start and definitely won't over do it. I've been through long periods of sobriety and enjoy it. I would 100% give up wine rather than coffee if I had to so I don't even love it that much. It's a stupid habit I've got into. But I do echo other posters who feel it just adds a nice buzz, warmth and a bit of sparkle to social events, meals, the little buzz after a stressful day. I was actually just talking to a friend this evening about it and she said pre kids she would drink a bottle of wine per day and thought nothing of it. Very healthy conscious in every other way. This was 10 yrs ago and I think attitudes have definitely changed.

What a strange comment.

I'm 39. I started drinking when I was about 14 because it's what we did. I very quickly learnt that booze lowers your inhibitions and made it possible for me to say and do things I wouldn't ever usually do as a shy awkward teenager. Also been brought up around drinkers and offered alcohol from a fairly early age.

Then followed the teens and twenties, uni and nights out. Loads of binge drinking. When I had kids I stopped going out as much but drank at home on weekends. Then as I said during and after Covid it's just crept up to most nights of the week. Having actually sat and thought about it I reckon I must average between 25-30 units a week given the measures of gin I pour.

I am definitely going to cut back. I just hope it isn't too late.

I actually do think you are Debbie Downer.

I've lived through losing a 18 year old sibling in a road tragic accident death, a cousin born and died at 18 because of a disability. All of my Grandparents lived till 80 or over.

I'm health conscious and have said before I'm not overweight and do not smoke. I will enjoy a drink when I'm out with friends.

I'm interested what your thoughts are on Chicken too. I actually eat a lot of vegetarian options but my DH is a meat everyday person.

Probably something to do with them mixing energy drinks (containing caffeine) with booze. The energy drink prevent the body’s natural response of feeling very tired and eventually passing out after drinking a certain amount of alcohol. Those drinks prevent that, so people can continue drinking beyond the point the body would naturally protect itself.

It does seem like pretty much everything has a risk of killing you nowadays doesn't it?

I also have a friend who is very ill because of skin cancer. Shall we all never go out in the sun?

Sounds like your mother had a tough liver, but bear in mind that most women live to their late 80s!

I have to agree with you on this one. Most women I know who drink a bottle or more daily are in complete denial that they have a drinking problem and almost portray themselves as having the perfect life/balance.

On the outside you wouldn’t even know they have this hidden addiction. They exercise excessively and follow strict diets or barely eat. If you mention that you eat cake with your coffee they are horrified and will make you almost feel bad for doing so but are themselves in denial that they have their own addiction to alcohol and are in essence, functioning alcoholics. They have even convinced themselves that drinking these amounts daily are acceptable and are quick to judge other peoples drinking or eating habits to divert attention from themselves. As we have seen repeatedly on this thread alone.

I do drink 2 glasses of wine myself every Friday evening which I really look forward to and also have some cake from time to time, I exercise and eat well otherwise. Moderation is key and keeping busy to distract you from potential cravings. Well that’s how I get through my days anyway. I could not function on 1/2 or 1 bottle of wine a day. I don’t know how anyone can but that’s addiction for you. It’s very hard to stop once you get stuck in the daily rut of drinking so I completely understand how hard it must be to just stop once you are addicted.
But addiction is what it is if you are drinking these excessive amounts daily.

No, but we could take precautions and use sunscreen?

Deleted as post I was replying to was not quoted.

Thank you for taking the time to post that, very interesting. So, if I’m reading it right, it looks like there’s been a sudden upward trend in all age groups? There’s also no data there on under 30s to compare to who I thought were the subject of the programme?

The under-30s didn't look dramatic.

(Looks like I saved it as the wrong kind of 'picture' from Excel, can't change it now. You'll just have to put up with jumpy lines!)

I don't like booze and I try to stay as far away from heavy drinkers as possible but I think assuming an automatic connection with liver disease is a bit simplistic.

My father has been an alcoholic all his life and has lots of problems related to it - neuropathy, memory issues, balance, muscle wastage etc - but his liver seems unscathed so far. Whereas my uncle who is teetotal actually has cirrhosis due to the effects of heart medications. There are genetic and environmental factors playing into a lot of conditions, all you can do is try and reduce your risk.

David Nutt, the ex-government advisor mentioned a few times up thread (I think he was fired for saying that horse riding was more dangerous than ecstasy iirc) has apparently invented non-alcoholic alcohol that they're currently trying to get to market. It's something that's supposed to mimic the warm, buzzy effect alcohol has on your brain and body without doing any of the damage. We'll have to wait and see how close it actually is though. It would answer a lot of people's prayers if it was a genuine alternative.

Its a bit like travelling without a seat belt. I grew up when no one wore one. None of my family were killed in car crashes. I travelled as a toddler standing between the two front seats or on my mums lap in front. I'm still here. Because most of the time when we travel we don't crash our cars. So, if it were still legal, how often is it OK to travel without a seat belt? Once or twice a week? Short journeys at low speeds? We'd mostly say never. Because there isnt any benefit to not wearing one to make it worthwhile, so our risk assessment wouldnt be coloured by our bias. Obviously there is a huge incentive for people to see alcohol as low risk so its nigh on impossible to objectively risk assess. I think it comes down more to cost/benefit analysis, which some will do, while others prefer to employ cognitive dissonance to believe there is no cost.

I also have a friend who is very ill because of skin cancer. Shall we all never go out in the sun?

Well, the last time I checked, going out in the sun isn't exactly avoidable - which is why most people cover up, use sunscreen and stick to the shade during the hottest parts of the day. Going out in the daylight is also fairly essential for bone health and Vitamin D.

Alcohol, on the other hand, is totally avoidable and while you can argue that it has some health benefits, there are plenty of other ways to improve heart health etc. that don't involve drinking.

Don't get me wrong, I totally get why people drink - it tastes nice, it's relaxing, it makes you feel good - but I do find it amusing that so many people (on here and IRL) choose to totally ignore the negative sides because they enjoy it and "only have a few bottles of wine a week so it's no big deal".

Without meaning to sound like my dad (doctor with alcoholic parents) a lot of people don't experience any negative symptoms or side effects from their poor lifestyles until it's too late to do anything about it.

I can't help thinking of a relative of mine who was diabetic and did absolutely nothing about it because he "felt fine" - he ended up with numb feet, infections and heart failure and spent the last decade or so of his life stuck rotting on the sofa because he couldn't walk or do anything for himself. On his deathbed all he could talk about was how he wishes he'd done things differently and had taken his health more seriously.