Assisted dying bill (TW assisted suicide discussion)

[Onand]

I appreciate this is a divisive subject and a sensitive topic for many. Please avoid this thread if you find any discussion of suicide, death, trauma, terminal illness, cancer and faith triggering.

I’m curious to know how others are feeling about this subject, from what I can see there isn’t a lot of discussion, is this a MNHQ decision or an indifference from posters?

My opinion and views on this potential landmark decision are based on my horrifying experience of watching and waiting for my mum to pass from end stage cancer several years ago.

For over four years she fought advanced cancer, she took every treatment and trial offered to her. She endured major abdominal surgery, many blood transfusions, multiple rounds of chemo, lost her hair several times, her bones started to crumble causing excruciating back pain, severe abdominal swelling, double nephrostomy as her kidneys failed, multiple lesions on her brain that caused debilitating headaches and personality changes, her teeth and bones were decaying due to a calcium disorder, various hospital stays for infections, the list goes on.

Truly the most hideous nightmare cancer ‘journey’ anyone could ever imagine, it always felt like one step forward and two backwards and yet she carried on without much fuss or sign of fear to protect the family and herself from the true horrors of suffering.

She never wanted to die and so she never gave up or gave in- that was until the last few weeks of her life when she had no choice. The immense damage and toll cancer had done to her physical body was too much to survive any longer so the last infection she had took her consciousness and so began the final horrifying curveball that cancer has up its evil sleeve, this one is for the loved ones though, because now you have to wait and watch for the end to come. Anyone who has endured this knows exactly what I am talking about, a horror that truly brings home the meaning of hell of earth.

If the assisted dying bill was around whilst my mum was alive I know she would have never entertained an early death whilst she was still in control and able to fight, but I do know that her love for the family would have also meant she would never have wanted us to endure that final two weeks of watching and waiting for her body to shut down if it could have been avoided and she was able to specify what was to happen at the end. There was no possibility of her ever getting better or a miraculous recovery, death was very inevitable and a certainty but we still had to sit and watch, doing oral care and leaving the room as they checked for bed sores and did secretion suction. The only thing I could do to protect and help her was the make sure she was undoubtedly unaware of what was happening as she feared death and leaving us behind- the thought of her being remotely aware meant we were constantly asking the nurses for more and more sedation.

If this bill gives patients the choice to avoid the hideously evil ending of a terminal illness and the following ptsd that impacts the loved ones left behind then it is an opportunity I strongly agree with. Watching a loved one die an agonising death is soul destroying and something I hope no one has to ever endure if said loved one could choose to avoid.

How do others feel?

I am so sorry for what happened to your mother and your family.

You often hear people say that good palliative care is what is needed which I feel angry about because we know full well that there will be so many instances where it won’t actually be available, and for someone like your mother the suffering was really too dreadful for any help.

I am for euthanasia for this reason but absolutely hesitantly because I feel sure that some people will feel pressured to die, and in time it will often be an expectation.

Lets also not forget the avoidance or trauma for the loved ones who stay until the end and then have to live with the recurring nightmares and visions of what happens in those situations.

Victoria, Australia looked at this and found that there is no evidence that assisted dying has any less of an impact than natural death:

“While data about the experiences of families of people who access VAD remain limited, it appears that difficult bereavement outcomes of disordered grief, mental health and posttraumatic stress are essentially unchanged in comparison with the experience of natural death.”
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/imj.16278

Ooops sorry meant to clear the quote,

I don’t really think this report is surprising. Numbers have increased over time. From just a handful to a few hundred a year. That’s in line with what you see in other jurisdictions. Even if you assume everyone has cancer there are about 9000 cancer deaths per year so it’s a tiny proportion of people who are choosing PAS around 3%. Nurses roles have evolved a lot over the last 25 years. People feel more like a burden and worry about the cost of care, It’s hardly a shocker with the rise in cost of living more people are struggling and those that they could of relied upon previously to help have struggles of their own/ no free time. Also it’s possible people feel more able to be pragmatic nowadays. I don’t want a prolonged death and I don’t want to be a burden, I don’t see the two as mutually exclusive.

Behind the data are horrific personal stories
https://dredf.org/some-oregon-and-washington-state-assisted-suicide-abuses-and-complications/

These cases are worrying. Especially where there are cancerdrugs that would help, are denied under the health care plan, but assisted suicide is offered instead.

What if this happened in the NHS where already certain more expensive but helpful drugs may be rationed or witheld.

(I still would like the option for myself under certain circumstances even while seeing how full of pitfalls it is though.)

Thank you for replying to my post.

I can see why the medical team would have treated her the first time. But I'm still unclear why you think your mother would have preferred assisted suicide to being repeatedly treated for infections when she had the option, which she did not take, to ask the medics to treat only the symptoms of any future infection she developed without treating the infection itself. I don't want to pressure you to explain anymore though.

It does seem that with better care your mother's last days could have been more comfortable. I fully support better end of life and better palliative care. I can't support assisted suicide as the answer to some examples of poor end of life care now.

No one is stopping you or anyone else from committing suicide

And how do you suggest they do that without access to the right drugs?

Totally agree with this. Also introduction of assisted dying will imo lead to terminally people even where is zero coercion from anyone being affected by the change in culture to think that they should choose opting to kill themselves by assisted dying , to save their children, families etc from the trauma of their natural death.

I think the "slippery slope" argument is valid. Look at countries where assisted dying is legal, some have moved a very long way from it applying to the terminally ill.

It basically invalidates the idea that all life is valid and that will permeate attitudes towards people with various disabilities etc.

OP I am sorry that your mother had to endure so much. However I disagree entirely that anyone should who is ill should consider assisted dying in order to avoid (even if that is part only of their decision) causing distress to their relatives or leaving them with PTSD. Their decision if the option is available to them must only be based on how they want to live their last days, uninfluenced by the fact that their relatives aren’t coping well.

I think we are not ready yet for such a law - palliative care needs to be better, less of a lottery, and more widely available BEFORE an alternative such as assisted dying should be offered.

it’d be a damn sight cheaper and quicker to offer someone the injection as an alternative to crap palliative care, and I’d hate to think that investment into good end of life care is disincentivised

Both my father and brother ended their lives with suicide. I'm very aware that suicide itself as a means of death has ramifications. I firmly believe whether it's controlled, legalised whatever those ramifications will still exist and affect families in ways they hadn't anticipated.

Absolutely not! The last one was a complete disaster.
The only referendum I'd entertain is rejoining the eu.

VioletSpeedwell · Today 01:40

No one is stopping you or anyone else from committing suicide
And how do you suggest they do that without access to the right drugs?

Suicide doesn’t require drugs but if drugs are your preferred method, you can get what you need in your local neighbourhood. It might be more challenging for a respectable-looking older lady, especially if housebound, but there are always workarounds.

I get that people want to be upfront. It’s becoming clear to me that people don’t just want a lack of state intervention when helped by family, they want state approval. They want the machinery of the state to deal with the ‘unpleasantness’. Everyone is free to argue for their own vision of society. What you can’t do is proclaim that unless other people (medical professionals) do your bidding, your human rights are being breached.

Medical professionals are not robots, minions or lapdogs that exist to do whatever the patient wants. They didn’t sign up to be purveyors of death and assisted dying changes the scope and image of the profession, even if only a minority of doctors are involved. It is far from clear that only a minority of doctors would be involved.

There is. My dad had one.
Morphine and it's very peaceful.

My parents both died in a horrendous way. My dad from a melanoma. Towards the end I had to watch blood seep into the roof of his mouth and mix with food, he had tears of blood from his eyes and blood haemorrhaging from his nose. There were pools of blood on his carpet. His back also crumbled and was classed as broken. He had the tumour also in his lung and kidney. He wanted to live until the last 6-8 weeks when he began to slump and was bedridden. Those last weeks were Hell for all of us and him.

As for my mum she died of dementia starved to death with no morphine.

I am scared and don’t want that. I want my dogs death and an injection to end things swiftly.

My DM was denied drugs to help her in the midst of psychotic dementia symptoms because there was a 1% chance of stroke from taking them. People with a terminal illness at the end of life are refused morphine, or morphine at a dose that will help relieve terrible pain because of risks to breathing. Medics seem intent on keeping patients alive at all costs snd I wonder what is driving this, certainly not empathy or compassion.

“Lets also not forget the avoidance or trauma for the loved ones who stay until the end and then have to live with the recurring nightmares and visions of what happens in those situations.”

This is precisely why the Bill must fail.

Can you imagine the pressure on the dying person to submit to the needle so their relatives won’t suffer?

100% support after watching both of my grandparents die from cancer. We wouldn't let animals die like that. It is something I would want if I was in that situation. I think everyone should be able to make a decision about their own life or rather the end of it.

Having watched my mum die a drawn-out painful death that people would deem it extremely cruel to put a dog through, I hope the bill passes. My mum spent the last 6 weeks of her life in a hospice. The doctors and nurses were wonderful, compassionate people but there was still a limit to what they could do to alleviate her suffering. I don’t think improving palliative care and introducing assisted dying (shortened death) need be mutually exclusive.

My mum (who had cancer) had written an advanced directive to refuse treatment. Quality, not quantity, of life was what was important to her.

I don’t expect assisted dying to be voted in. Government doesn’t really represent public opinion and the minority of people opposed are incredibly vocal. just because it’s a minority doesn’t make it wrong.

Even you agree that this should just be the beginning and that a slippery slope needs to happen. You say that you want the opportunity to die at a time of your choosing, well if this bill passes this isn’t going to include you if you end up with dementia.

I am absolutely for not extending life unnecessarily and I do believe that the “life at all costs” has multiple arguments against. But anyone can sign an advance directive to this effect so that is also worth looking into.

But the idea of holding down a terrified dementia patient to essentially put them down is barbaric. And that is what they do in some parts of Europe.

The Netherlands now allows assisted dying for couples who have had a long marriage and who have the wish to die together. But that has been proven to be rife with coercion by one or other party.

In Canada people with mental health conditions, disabilities, the homeless are recommended assisted dying instead of help.

How long do you think it will be before the PIP application process includes the question as to whether the person applying has considered assisted dying and if not, why not, and for the pip Assessor to refuse the application on the basis that assisted dying is available.

The reason why it’s the minority that are so vocal is because the minority can see where this is heading and don’t want it to.

The blunt truth is that the majority want the slippery slope. They want the bill to ultimately be extended to the disabled, the elderly, the mentally ill, basically for anyone who is suicidal at any time to be able to pop to the dr’s and have a doctor kill them so they don’t have to d it themselves, or anyone who feels they’re a burden to their family for whatever reason. And then it becomes a short step to it not being about assisted dying, but expected dying.

I love my cats more than anything. If they were in pain I would make sure I did everything in my power to end it, even if I had to do it myself. It would haunt me for the rest of my life, but I would do it.

This seems to be an acceptable opinion throughout most of society, but then we expect humans to die in painful, undignified, terrifying ways.

But we don't assess pets' mental health, do we? We essentially are in control of animals.

Fwiw I agree with it in principal but it's open for too much abuse.

A man in Canada applied for assisted dying as he was homeless.
He was approved.
Crowd funding then gave him a home.
He decided against it.

How do we stop that from happening?

Where's the line drawn?

I've had mental health problems since a child. I've accepted I'll never be happy or feel happiness. I live for my dc essentially. I suspect if dc wasn't here I'd apply to but then where do we draw the line again?

It's not a case of it being only offered to those terminally ill. It may begin like this but it would be expanded.

I watched my dear uncle die a long and painful death from terminal cancer. Again, it would be great in those circumstances but unfortunately, it won't remain so.

I think the line is drawn when there is no medical reason, it’s not a ‘suicide with tea and toast on a ward’ service that you can just book onto because of a break up, bankruptcy or guilt of a criminal act.

This is helping those who are facing a certain death or prolonged suffering due to a diagnosis of terminal illness.

Co-op funerals are not going to have suicide concessions attached to their chapels of rest for walk-in services.

I've known of people who are terminally ill suffering yet are still being treated. One gp wanted a lady with weeks to live have her blood sugars monitoring as she was on steroids! or given antibiotics to treat an infection. Just why. Yes alleviate suffering with opiates but ime it is GPs who need updates and guidelines on what not to treat to prolong suffering.

Government needs to throw money at end of life care.

@Onand What's a medical reason, though? That's not a clear line.