To ask teachers about disruptive behaviour in secondary schools?

[mimblewimble]

I hear of so many teachers leaving the profession, or describing how they work in extremely stressful conditions, with student behaviour being awful and seemingly getting worse.

My kids report so much disruption in class at their school, which is apparently one of the best local state schools.

As I write this I'm thinking I'm probably BU just for asking teachers anything as I'm sure you don't have loads of spare time and mental energy!

But I'm interested in what teachers would like to see done to tackle behaviour in secondary schools - are there changes that you think would help?

Or do you work in a school where the behaviour is good, and if so why do you think that is?

A moments inattention in my current industry (and several previous ones) could see you killed.
Not wearing the correct "uniform" could see you with a life long injury.
As an example both of these could happen (have happened) when people don't see the point in wearing the correct "uniform" for the 30 seconds to a minute that it takes to go through the warehouse.

If you were constantly needling and punishing your employees for violating any one of hundreds of arbitrary rules, with no apparent connection to the actual work of the company, you would be despised and viewed as a contemptible bully by your employees, and your workplace would be a toxic workplace that couldn't attract and retain talent.

It's interesting. Some of the teachers here go on about wanting to leave the field because of a lack of respect by students and parent. And yet if they did, they would be right back on this forum in two years complaining about how their employees lack respect. And they would never figure it out.

I remember one poor young lad first term at Secondary school being barked at by one of the senior students as he hadn't opened the door for me as I carried the registers along the corridor.

I used to get the same treatment out of school if I saw any of the pupils out and about. I was the receptionist - not even a teacher

I bet if I ever bumped into any of these now adults I'd be treated with the same respect

But of course private schools aren't worth the money are they?

If as an employer, employees were constantly breaking the rules, they'd be fired.

Interesting to hear that behaviour at a private secondary is so much better . Presumably smaller class numbers, fewer SN as many private schools can’t or won’t deal with these.Parents are paying considerable sums so are invested in success and it seems SLT are hot on discipline issues. Going to be hard to emulate this in state unfortunately, SLT could help more but the threat of exclusion/withdrawal isn’t as available and schools have to accommodate a huge breadth of ability and needs alongside many parents who frankly couldn’t give a or have their own agendas re schools.

We were at an event recently and while all the Teens were generally lovely DS was the only one opening doors for adults, offering to get chairs, keeping his jacket and tie on and making polite conversation with adults.
I help 2 schools with Y11 Mock interviews and the school with the tighter discipline certainly better prepares the DC for the world of work based on what I see.

The very opposite of this is objectively true. Like it or not. Schools don’t police uniform for the sake of it but because, as per the infamous ‘broken windows’ policy that turned New York around decades ago, boundaries matter. Kids who learn that school stand firm on uniform are less likely to take the piss in more significant areas.

Gentle parenting should be a crime. It’s child abuse. All known evidence shows that children thrive with firm, fair boundaries in place. It makes them feel loved and secure. The best ways to fuck up your kids is to either be too permissive or too authoritarian.

Private schools also have the ultimate in sanctions in that if you do enough wrong, you will get kicked out. And that includes grades as well as behaviour.

I am wondering whether I am enforcing petty rules to expect kids not to swear constantly at the top of their voice in the corridors, barge each other about and occasionally staff, trip each other up, run in the corridors, or jump down flight of stairs?

These are common behaviours. Adults don't tend to this. It's an invidious comparison to keep talking about adult environments.

If I correct these behaviours (or attempt to) I get automatic lip and argument these days. This does not happen in my classroom so this is about students not automatically acceding to reasonable correction and intervention from adults. Call it respect, if you will.

They're not Che Guevara on an ideological mission or rebels raging against the machine or sticking it to the man.

Absolutely prepares them for the world of work and to negotiate life in general

Hercisback1
Many workplaces have rules. I work in a school.
I have to turn up on time.
I have to have the things I need to do my job.
I have to do things to a deadline.
I may not have a uniform but there are things I cannot wear. E.g, I can't wear trainers nor jeans or sportswear and need to look smart.
I have to be polite to my colleagues and to parents.
I have to respect the environment and look after the equipment provided to me.
I can't eat, drink or go to the loo whenever I feel like it.
I don't always like all my colleagues but I am not allowed to be abusive or difficult when speaking to them. I am expected to work with people that I may not like personally.
I have parts of my job that I find boring and annoying. I still have to do them.

Hmm sounds pretty much what is expected of students. I have worked many different jobs with similar rules.

@cansu you may have tagged the wrong person, I am in total agreement with you.

I'm so sorry to hear this. Please call the school and ask to speak to the person in charge of pastoral care for your daughter (at my school, this would be the head of house, but it could be a head of year or someone else again). Explain to them what is happening and how it is affecting your daughter. She deserves better and school should be eager to support her xxx

sorry hercisback1 - apologies! I think you were replying to Killertomato's nonsense and I misread it.

Only if poor grades is a side effect of poor behaviour in most cases.

KillerTomato7

If you were constantly needling and punishing your employees for violating any one of hundreds of arbitrary rules, with no apparent connection to the actual work of the company, you would be despised and viewed as a contemptible bully by your employees, and your workplace would be a toxic workplace that couldn't attract and retain talent.

Some of these hundreds of arbitrary rules in the workplace are required by law.

Once again, you're using this tactic where you invoke obviously justifiable rules that are in place nearly everywhere, including "less strict" schools, in order to justify arbitrary ones with no evident purpose other than to assert authority for its own sake. Yes, societies have rules. And no, that doesn't justify any random rule an authority figure happens to come up with.

And if you did happen to forget a pen or forget to take your jacket off, you would not be spoken to contemptuously or made to stay 30 minutes after work. You would be politely reminded of the rule, provided you hadn't made a habit of it.

I don't know of any school that gives a detention or other sanction for a breaking of a minor rule once.

And one more thing before I'm done with our little chat. You may want to consider whether opinions that differ from your own are necessarily "nonsense," and whether this is a healthy way to engage with people.

You can't be surprised that children have trouble showing respect in schools, when you as a teacher can't even manage it in the context of this website.

Killertomato7
If you think that students are not reminded hundreds of times that they need equipment then you are deluded. In any case this thread is about the reasons for poor behaviour and as usual you have decided to focus on the 'petty' sanctions for forgetting a pen. The students we are discussing are not those who on occasion forget their tie. We are talking about students who are habitually late, disruptive, rude and decline to bring equipment.

Poor behaviour is evident all the way down in nursery classes and gets worse with each year.
Primary SLT come up with behaviour policies that work well in practice. Teachers follow the behaviour policy but it falls flat at the stage where SLT involvement is needed. SLT write themselves into the policy but are reluctant to follow it. Most SLTs I've workied with don't want to deal with unruly children or their difficult parents. They tend to hide themselves away in their offices with closed doors and 'do not disturb' or 'meeting in progress' signs.
So, a strict school where parents and children show respect and follow the rules is of course an excellent idea but very few heads want to go to the trouble of implementing it.

At reasonable schools like the one you probably teach at, no. At some of the academy chains, however, particularly those who have leaders that seek to cultivate a certain image, things seem to be done differently.

I don't apologise for calling your opinions nonsense. They are nonsense. You pop up time and time again trotting out the same old rubbish.

I doubt very much that even the strictest school would sanction a generally well behaved student who forgot a pen once or twice and then politely asked the teacher for one (assuming thay have no friends to lend one).

I've worked in a pretty strict academy chain. Even it wasn't this bad.