To ask teachers about disruptive behaviour in secondary schools?

[mimblewimble]

I hear of so many teachers leaving the profession, or describing how they work in extremely stressful conditions, with student behaviour being awful and seemingly getting worse.

My kids report so much disruption in class at their school, which is apparently one of the best local state schools.

As I write this I'm thinking I'm probably BU just for asking teachers anything as I'm sure you don't have loads of spare time and mental energy!

But I'm interested in what teachers would like to see done to tackle behaviour in secondary schools - are there changes that you think would help?

Or do you work in a school where the behaviour is good, and if so why do you think that is?

I agree and this is across both State and Private.
At my Ds's school the kids are sanctioned for things that wouldn't even raise an eyebrow at a lot of State schools. I sit on the exclusion panel for a State school and we keep kids who have repeatedly done things that would have seen my son expelled if he did it once.
Phones are not allowed, uniform rules are rigid and very specific including haircut length for boys and being clean shaven. Not opening a door for adults is seen as unacceptable, as is walking through a door before an adult. leaving school premises during the day isn't allowed,temporary exclusion is rare and expulsion is rarer. DS's friends from other schools are horrified by what he could get into trouble for - but were also shocked that he could wear a proper tie as they had been banned at theirs for safety reasons!

I’m a teacher and agree with ALL of this. The attention span deterioration has really struck me recently, even my top set year 10’s need to be reminded to look at the board frequently!

"Those of us who have tended to put our kids in childcare" is almost everyone. Its not as if that 'choice' is confined to some select class of high achieving education-valuers.

There are, as many have said, myriad reasons for poor behaviour. I suspect the poster had a bit of an agenda to push there. Often, kids with poor behaviour come from chaotic households, where they may not have been sent to nursery at a young age, but will have been pretty much ignored at home, even though, technically, they had a parent or carer there. Or there are the kid who. Don't think they need to do any work 'cos my dad didn't get any qualifications and he earns loads.'

This used to be the case. But not now, students with bad behaviour come from all sorts of families including aspirational ones.

I think we are conflating two meanings of 'respect.' There is the inherent respect you owe each other as human beings, which doesn't have to be earned.

But then there is the other common meaning of respect, which is the one often used when talking about relations between employees and employers, teachers and students etc. That one requires trust in someone's competence, judgment, and good will. That does have to be earned. Or as some would prefer to say, we start off with that kind of respect, but it can easily be lost.

No, students should respect teachers from the off.

This is exactly the issue most posters are talking about.

Agree with all of these but what's wrong with Nike pro shorts in summer?

Twas ever thus. I was a supply teacher 30 years ago and I had to give it up because the behaviour was so unbelievably bad. The only year group where I could reliably know it wouldn't be awful was Year 1.

Worst experiences of many terrible ones

-watching a pupil throw a stack of lockers at a teacher
-having a child skin up in the lesson
-being locked in to a classroom in 'the unit' with a panic button under the desk and a security guard outside. The kids had a group punch-up.

Topped off with seeing a parent punch and knock out the headteacher because her child had been touched by a teacher while the teacher was trying to break up a fight.

Yes, this is non-negotiable. Parents sending their children into school with the idea that they don't have to respect their teacher until they have decided that the teacher has shown themselves to be competent or worthy of professional respect are a MASSIVE part of the problem.

If 1:1 works better for your child, please consider educating them 1:1. For the sake of your child, and for the sake of all students and teachers who have to suffer said disruption. My child has ASD and cannot cope with too much noise, so a child arguing with the teacher or talking during a lesson would impact their learning. Now who takes priority over whom?
If your child is lovely at home, is it because they get more attention than a teacher can give? I have a child in my form who is massively attention-seeking. A lovely lad 1:1, but a nightmare in a class of 30, because he cannot cope with not being the centre of attention and sharing his every whimsey. Mainstream isn't for him, but parents refuse to see that, so everyone else in class has to suffer when he, yet again, shouts out about something that just entered his head.

Yes visible. Skirts so short that when they stand up you can see underwear sometimes with sanitary towels in view- walking upstairs behind girls can be really stressful.

My kids aren't little shits and respect their teachers. I'm not the one with a child who is out of control. I don't really care what you think! It's not me with the problem children. I just feel for the poor teachers who have to deal with this crap and excuses from parents (or worse, well he's fine for me at home) instead of accepting it's their fault and they should sort it out.

Oh come on - shouting out is not something a child can (or should) be in a special school for.

With respect, many parents are aware that mainstream isn't right for their child but also know they haven't got a hope in hell of getting them an EHCP and placed in a more appropriate school (and even if they manage the former, the latter can be still out of reach). I'm not saying that is the case with the family you referred to - I don't know their innermost thoughts (and I presume there must be more to the boy's issues than you have stated for you to claim that mainstream isn't for him... all you have mentioned is that he is seeks attention) - but this is the reality for many many families in the UK right now. Many LAs will do anything they can to keep an SEN child in mainstream (often going against the law). This is well documented. As you have a child with ASD (as do I) I'm surprised I have to explain this.

They are like knickers. No legs to them at all!

And also, 'please consider educating them 1:1'? 😵‍💫 Yes, because it's just that easy...

But we both know that many of the hundreds of things kids can be punished for now have nothing to do with safely organizing a thousand pupils or helping them move between lessons. Things like wearing socks that are the wrong shade of gray, or having a tie that is two inches too long, or a button undone, or dropping your pencil during a lesson, or taking off a sweater indoors, or looking out the window during a lecture. These rules do, however, allow headteachers to create the appearance of respect and good order without having to deal with difficult issues like bullying. They also tend to discourage students with SEN or other difficulties from attending, which helps with the all-important exam results.

And as far as uniforms, many parents that support uniforms in general still despise the petty faultfinding and financial expense now associated with them. Many staff also hate rules that essentially place us in the position of bullying good kids that already have enough on their plate as teenagers. Because that is what we would call it if bosses in adult workplaces acted like this -- bullying. If I were up till all hours revising for an exam or finishing a project, and some teacher came bustling up to issue me a detention because my tie was too loose, I would lose whatever shred of respect I had for that person.

And yes, parents are going to "wade in" and complain in the face of draconian rules that seem unreasonable on their face to the vast majority of people. Obviously they don't understand the job as well as professional educators, but let's not act like we're the priests of some religious mystery cult, whose every rule is the product of some ineffable wisdom beyond conventional understanding, regardless of any apparent connection with actually educating children.

Because that is what we would call it if bosses in adult workplaces acted like this -- bullying. If I were up till all hours revising for an exam or finishing a project, and some teacher came bustling up to issue me a detention because my tie was too loose, I would lose whatever shred of respect I had for that person.

Schools are not adult workplaces though and if DC don't have the ability, will or even to be able to understand that they sometimes have to do things that they don't really fancy or see the need for then they may struggle at work.
My son getting a demerit for having his shirt untucked is fine by me, he knows the rules and if he chooses to break them then he has to take the consequences and I sure as hell don't see it as bullying.

Ehcp and getting in to SEN school is not easy, my daughter is in the process of transitioning.
she has had a EHCP since reception
full time 1-1 32.5 hours direct in primary school.
autism, communication language disorder , cerebral palsy, heart disease, bowel disease, ambulant wheelchair user, IV lines, feeding tubes - barely makes it through a school day in year 6 mainstream and they have still sent her ehcp to the local mainstream secondary schools - because she is academically with her peers 😭

KillerTomato7

Many staff also hate rules that essentially place us in the position of bullying good kids that already have enough on their plate as teenagers. Because that is what we would call it if bosses in adult workplaces acted like this -- bullying.

You really need to redefine what you consider "bullying", I will even go so far as to say that this attitude is why schools are having so many problems.

This is exactly the response when I call home and say, ‘Your child told me to fuck off and die because I marked him late.’
’I think that’s a bit unfair. He says he was upset you marked him late, and he didn’t tell you to fuck off.’

Because that is what we would call it if bosses in adult workplaces acted like this -- bullying.

Plenty of workplaces have seemingly stupid rules that employees have to follow otherwise they'll get a disciplinary. Schools are the same. The rules look extreme, but really they're about having to keep hundreds of children safe.

Oh come on. Teenagers are a different age group, not a different species. If we would justifiably hate and rebel against something as adults, we shouldn't expect 16-18 year olds to be any different.

And I'm sure kids are filled with anxiety because they're "choosing to break the rules," not because they're worried about being hauled up at any minute for the slightest moment of inattention. If you wouldn't see that as bullying in an adult workplace, then I'm glad you're a teacher and not a boss.

And its very important for kids to learn that you can't just do what you want with no consequences and teaching that in school prepares them for work.
Best they learn the lesson that things can be "unfair" but sometimes you need to suck it up at school than when they have a mortgage to pay

Agree with many posters. I think that there are so many threads on here where parents are unhappy when their child is challenged.

• lack of concentration has increased
• not having right equipment
• constantly swigging drinks & then needing the toilet & refusing to go at break as they prefer to miss lessons
• barging past people & that includes teachers & visitors
• deliberately rocking up late to a lesson & then making a load of noise getting coat off, unpacking bag (when I had already done register & am trying to explain the starter)
• arguing back about getting a late mark & being asked to settle down
• calling out & interrupting the lesson & then arguing about being issued a level
• wearing false eyelashes, nose studs & acrylic nails to school & getting huffy when challenged