Occupational flirting

[CuriousJane]

Lighthearted thread!

was just chatting to DH about this. I’m in an industry with lots of very powerful successful middle age men (50s/ 60s). I’m mid 30s, reasonably attractive, successful but not in the same role as these men. I was chatting to DH about how I definitely gently flirt wish these men in work for professional gain. Not overt, or sexual flirting but more banter, putting them down, they seem to love it. I think very successful men really enjoy being sort of put down in a flirty way by younger females.

DH finds it quite humorous and said he can definitely see me doing this and that he can see when I’m doing this with his dad (my fil) which I definitely do. He’s definitely not jealous and if anything finds it quite sexy that I can “manipulate” men like this.

do other women use their sexuality in the workplace? Or am i some kind of succubus.

I cringe at women who go giggly and flirty to get their own way or to curry favour with men.

I would much rather see a confident woman holding her own intellectually than being coquettish.

See, I never understand attitudes like this.

It's a fact that confidence, charisma and sex appeal opens doors for people that might otherwise remain closed.

If a woman knows how to use these characteristics to her advantage in a professional capacity, why should that be frowned upon?

I thought women were supposed to be able to do what they want? Or can they only do what other women approve of?

Only flirting I'd do with a boss is to the back of the head just after I'd picked my nose.

Yes, in general, men love flirty banter - aka 'flanter' - and I don't see any problem with a woman 'using her feminine wiles' to her advantage.

That said, I've always found that 'flanter' comes naturally, ie, it's always just how I myself, for example, would naturally relate to a male co-worker/industry professional that I have a good rapport with. It's not something I'd ponder over, if you see what I mean, as you have here; how you describe it sounds almost a little too 'try hard'.

But, equally, if it works for you, who are we to argue?

This! 👏👏

Well I believe in equality and men don't need sex appeal to get on in their careers so why should women?
You need intelligence and knowledge and integrity and professionalism to do your job properly. I don't see what sex appeal has to do with it.
And that's aside from having respect: self respect, and also respect for the wife's, girlfriends and partners of these men who women like OP are flirting with.

This has the hallmarks of a bored person with nothing interesting to do on the weekend, so they're going to start a controversial thread on Mumsnet.
Job done ✅.

Hell no to this. I work in a very male dominated sector. We have 2 women to about 100 men. Friendly banter is fine. Flirting is over the line and I’ve had to block a few of them that don’t know where that line is which makes working with them awkward. Would never knowingly put myself in that position.

'Men don't need sex appeal to get on in their careers'

Sorry, but are you joking? Natural charisma and/or sex appeal is literally how the likes of George Clooney, Brad Pitt and countless other film, TV, music stars have made their money!

In everyday business, it'll be the guy with the most natural charisma and who looks 'the part' who gets the promotion.

Yes, of course people need 'intelligence, knowledge, integrity and professionalism' to do their job properly. But it's just a fact that someone - male or female - even slightly lacking in any of these areas that has bags of charisma/sex appeal WILL be the one to come out on top.

As for self respect, it's a bit of flirty banter to pass the time of day, not a full-on sex session in a store cupboard. Lighten up!

I’m not sure it’s you doing the manipulating here, OP. I’ve seen women behave like this for years, yes there is a certain type of man who loves it, though I don’t think I’ve ever seen those men truly respect those women or take them seriously. I have also seen women who have relied on this technique for years, start to flounder when they get a little older, and the new younger models take their place (and thankfully the younger generation on the whole seem less inclined to behave this way).

There’s also the world of difference between the way a man looks at you when he’s having that enjoyable flirty banter (which is enjoyable out of the workplace when you’re genuinely flirting with someone!)and the way a colleague looks at you when they realise you truly know your stuff and are good at your job- that feeling of genuine respect is so much more worthwhile, honestly. I actually quite like seeing the men I worked with change from the silly banter to then actually showing their true selves to me when they realised I could actually do the job and was a valuable part of the team.

NEW FILM: Carry On Office 🤣🤣. Can't imagine anything worse that having to flirt with seniors.

🤔

Female colleagues will detest you and male colleagues won't take you seriously.
If you get promoted people will wonder who you fucked to get it.

Well charisma and sex appeal aren't the same thing for a start.

You give as your examples of people who progressed because they have sex appeal film stars: yes of course in their industry and in entertainment and music sex appeal is important. But that is a very specific sector where it may be necessary for a certain type of person. Not all actors actors and actresses even need sex appeal - character actors for instance don't. And certainly not all musicians need it for that matter.

And I dont accept many jobs require charisma. I do think very often personality is important. And charisma is not the same as personality.

Flirty banter between people in a work situation is not appropriate. You don't need to be sexually attracted to someone to work with them. And in fact being sexually attracted to a work colleague can hinder working relationships and it's certainly not fair on other colleague's outside the sexual bubble. And flirting is sexual by definition. Flirting between people who are in relationships with other people is disrespectful to their partners.

And what's with this sneering " lighten up " ? It's one thing to disagree with what someone has said. Another thing to sneer at them.

You flirt with your fil?

That's creepy.

And you pander to the men at your work? That's just weak.

Interesting points. How would you define charisma?

Is it flirting or more flattery? I think I do it sometimes with both men and women.
Eg if I came to your house for dinner and said that was delicious the best pasta I have ever eaten how would you feel?

Surely most people would be pleased, feel better about themselves even if objectively they knew they weren’t the best cook in the world.
In a business context doesn’t that just oil the wheels?

I think one issue is that for most straight men interacting with an attractive woman, there is a good chance that anything said at all will be interpreted by them as flirtatious.

I am not particularly conventionally attractive and never have been. Nor would I count myself as flirtatious. Yet just chatting to male colleagues, having a laugh with them etc has been misinterpreted by some of them as flirtation and led them to then try to be inappropriate with me. And this is when I have not tried to flirt at all and look pretty frumpy.

Basically: I think there is always a sexualised element to women's interactions in the work place because we are pretty much always sexualised inherently just for having bodies and existing in the world.

Whilst some have said the OP should be using her other qualities to get ahead, not flirtation, I doubt she is doing anything different to anyone, male or female, who uses an element of humour and charm in their interactions with others. Everyone uses what they have to get what they can, and social skills are a key part of relationship-building and workplace progression. But as a woman, she isn't going to be able to use those social skills without a sexual dynamic being present, whether she wants that or not. The fact that she's leaning into it and calling it what it is is just a sign that she isn't naive.

Those suggesting that the OP is letting other women down or even that she has forfeited her right to complain if she is sexually assaulted at work... well I couldn't disagree more strongly with that. Seems to me like that plays into some terrible misogyny (oh you can't blame x for pinching his female subordinate's bum... he was understandably confused by the mixed signals she was giving off in attempting to navigate the work power hierarchy successfully whilst having a female body).

Unfortunately, what you see as you being ‘powerful’ and using your sexuality, they see as you being a flirty little woman who cannot resist them. And therefore undermines you and other women.

Bit of an ick for me personally purely based on how much women have had to go through to achieve equality, it just feels like a step back and perhaps indicates a lack of self belief in your abilities if you feel this is what you need to do to advance professionally.

I enjoy 'banter' with long term colleagues who I know well, and would call friends but this does not become 'flirting' ever, as I want to be respected for my work and skills.

Working in a male dominated environment I've seen women fall into a similar trap and overheard the office gossip that follows those ladies around (slept to the top) which I don't agree with or join in with, but equally I wouldn't want to ever be 'that' person in my office.

You do you, but anything that gives an older, potentially higher ranked man the wrong impression is definitely not harmless imo.

its grim, both of you, and especially the fil comment.

“That’s the best pasta I’ve ever eaten, tell me how you got so much flavour into the sauce?” = oiling the wheels of the relationship with flattery.

”That’s the best pasta I’ve ever eaten but I had to be careful not to drip all that yummy sauce (strokes collarbone; tosses hair) and my skirt feels a bit tight now” = drawing attention to physical body and being suggestive. Flirting. And not a little cheap.

One approach keeps you in your box as a pretty bit of totty to lighten up the workplace and doesn’t get you taken seriously as a professional. You can decide which.

That would make more sense if I’d managed to reply to @Fairyliz rather than going off on some pasta is the patriarchy rant 😆

Dear god, how pathetic.

Personally I prefer that people think I'm competent.