To wonder if people who are objectively bad people know they’re bad, or if they’re just delusional?

[OneElatedMintReader]

I’ve been reflecting on some people I’ve known (my ex in particular), and it’s made me wonder: do people with awful character traits - those who lie, manipulate, or just treat others terribly - know deep down that they’re terrible people?

Do they ever reflect and think, “Yeah, I’m the problem here,” or do they convince themselves they’re in the right to avoid facing the truth? Is it self-delusion or just a complete lack of self-awareness?

I’m curious if anyone has insights or examples, either from psychology or personal experiences, about whether people like this can ever recognise their own flaws - or if they just go through life blissfully unaware of how awful they are.

I don’t think anyone thinks of themselves as a villain. I think some people do bad things and convince themselves they are doing it for the “right” reason. I think narcissists just don’t care and will do whatever they think gives them an advantage and are basically amoral.

I'm often astonished at the way the most inocuous act can be reinterpreted by someone with an agenda.

Some people are deluded. I know of people who abused their children but go to church and help others.

Some people enjoy harming others, they see others as weak and easily manipulated. Society often victim blames, asking why the victim put themselves into a position of harm.

I believe that everyone is capable of evil given the opportunity.

There’s a great video on YouTube on the differences between narcissists sociopaths and psychopaths.

IME, those who do "bad things" tend to be able to see themselves as the "good guy" or in most cases the victims and everyone else is wrong.
Those that are sly and get others to do things, tend to think that its not them that have done it so they can't be bad.

My ex would occasionally admit he knew he was ‘bad,’ although it came along with a lot of self pity.

Some people (psychopaths) have no concept of right and wrong in terms of hurting other people because they view other people as objects. Psychopaths aren't just serial killers, many are very successful. Lots are surgeons, CEOs etc.

Other people actually get a thrill out of hurting other people because they are mentally ill or very damaged or both. They usually don't admit this to themselves on a conscious level though and tend to fall into the category that will always try to justify their own behaviour and gaslight others to blame them instead because convincing themselves they are in the right and it's all someone else's fault is the only way they can reconcile the cognitive dissonance.

I think there are probably very few people who know they are an objectively bad person and consciously recognise this and admit it to themselves. Nobody wants to feel bad about themselves so if they did, and did not fit into either category above, the realisation would be sufficient to make them want to change (even if just for the selfish reason of protecting their own ego).

I hope this isn't too lighthearted. I think it has a serious point to make.

I think everyone thinks they have the right motivations. It’s just that some people are motivated by the wrong things.

I’ve known a few people with compulsions that make them lie or do strange stuff. In the moment they really think they are making the correct choices.

I've pondered this all my life. There were some truly nasty, sneering bitches in my year at school. Did they know they were nasty? Surely it's not possible to be that big a cunt and not be aware?

I have experience of a horror of a person like this. You would be forgiven for thinking he’s some sort of demon wearing a human suit, that’s how bad he is, yet superficially very charming and passes as normal.

I think he knows what he does is considered wrong by normal people because he masks it and lies about it.

But I also think that he doesn’t believe normal morals and ethics apply to him.

His ethical code seems to be -
What he wants / likes = good.
What he doesn’t want / like = bad.

I don’t think I’ve known any really evil people, but I’ve known/currently know some amazingly selfish ones! They don’t consider other people, such as their family members, at all. It’s quite extraordinary sometimes how blind they are to how much pressure and stress that they put on others.

You can't call somebody who lies or manipulates an objectively bad person, there are plenty of instances where you could argue the opposite.
An ex who cheated - sure, they could be a terrible person in your eyes, and probably the eyes of many others, but you can't say that they are objectively bad. What's going on in the specific situation?
If somebody does something that is considered to be terrible, it's hard to say if they're aware or to what extent. They might be unaware and never/later register their behaviour. Or they may be aware, but simply don't give a shit or are unwilling/unable to care for whatever reason.

People have different values. I notice frequently in life and on Mumsnet that some things I might regard as selfish or greedy or unkind, some people think of as entrepreneurial or not being a pushover.

Yes, I had an ex like this, he would have moments of lucidity, and tell me I should keep away from him, because he was a really bad person.It was a bit sad really he tried to be better sometimes, but couldn't keep to it.
Eventually I listened.

No, either they don’t reflect at all or they believe that even the dubious things they have done are justifiable or understandable and that everyone would do them if they had the change

I don't think they think in those terms at all tbh, because they tend to be very self focused, lacking in empathy, so not that concerned with what other people think or feel. They might argue they are good people if that was necessary, to impress a date, get a job, keep social connections, but it wouldn't be something that would occupy much headspace, as their focus is their own needs, preferences and opinions not other peoples.

About a decade ago I bumped into some school bullies in the pub. They were all "OMG YOU'RE SO FUNNY, WHY WEREN'T WE FRIENDS AT SCHOOL??!" I was like "Erm because you used to pick on me at school?". They seemed genuinely baffled.

Another bully from school was bullied herself by older women at her first job. She used to post things like "How could anyone treat another person like this for no reason?" on Facebook.

I was not nice to a couple of people at school myself and I feel absolutely terrible about it. There was no excuse and I wish I could apologise to them. So I guess it depends on the person. I try to be self aware and I carry a lot of guilt about my mistakes.

Fairly sure my dad was a narc, it was hard to see him as bad, he just did stuff that was in his interest and didn’t understand when anyone objected because he just had a worldview that said “yeah but this works for me” it just didn’t occur to him that anyone would have opposing interests. He wouldn’t go out of his way to harm anyone for example (that would mean he was interested in anything other than himself) but he just couldn’t comprehend that other peoples needs really mattered unless he thought they did. Similar to pp, the rules didn’t apply to him. Good and bad is meaningless to someone like that, they don’t do things to be good or bad they are motivated purely by self interest. Perfectly law abiding etc.

I can see how he could have been really really fucking awful though if he felt he needed to be to get what he wanted.

Well, we've all come across the smirk haven't we? The one corner of the mouth, duper's delight, "I've got them, haven't I?" look.

(Run time 18 seconds) Here's Diane Downs, a well known example.

I knew a really horrible individual who said ‘I’m not a good person but I don’t give a fuck!’ She was really unpleasant.

I've known people who are objectively bad - Machiavellian, controlling or troublemaking behaviours - and they don't see other people as equal to them. They dehumanise others and their focus is entirely on themselves. We are just a resource to them. Some of them definitely got off on what they were doing.

They are entitled to it.

My ex is either a psychopath or narcissist, he has a long history of abusing women and children. He's been in prison twice previously and is currently serving a 14 year sentence. I don't think he thinks he's a bad person, he either thinks he's justified in what he's done or he lies to himself and makes himself believe he never did it. I'm not quite sure which. He is the absolute worst of the worst though, the abuse he inflicted on children is the worst kind of thing you can imagine.

Actually I do know someone IRL who’s objectively bad. One of my Dad’s friends was made homeless when her son used her house as security for his business. He forged her signature on loan documents.

She didn’t want him to go to prison so she let the house be taken and was put into over-60’s housing. Extraordinarily, she still sees him and has forgiven him.

Really don’t know but has a long term friend who used people terribly.

she once said that she worked hard to try and be a good person. When we finally (and happily) ended our friendship the one piece of advice I gave her was that if she had to work THAT hard to be a decent person she was better off just being herself.