To wonder if people who are objectively bad people know they’re bad, or if they’re just delusional?

[OneElatedMintReader]

I’ve been reflecting on some people I’ve known (my ex in particular), and it’s made me wonder: do people with awful character traits - those who lie, manipulate, or just treat others terribly - know deep down that they’re terrible people?

Do they ever reflect and think, “Yeah, I’m the problem here,” or do they convince themselves they’re in the right to avoid facing the truth? Is it self-delusion or just a complete lack of self-awareness?

I’m curious if anyone has insights or examples, either from psychology or personal experiences, about whether people like this can ever recognise their own flaws - or if they just go through life blissfully unaware of how awful they are.

I think its complicated and depends on person.

In my past I was chaotic. All of my hurt I directed to myself. I had no idea/ insight that my actions were inadvertently impacting those around me and bystanders. I was oblivious.
It was selfishness in my case.
Like for example, when your having a bad day, something breaks, you fall over then your car breaks down. Your overwhelmed with your unfortunate circumstances. When so and so asks something mundane and you don't realise your snappy. You don't realise because your focused on your bad day, but who you snapped at was having a worse day and their dog died. You were inadvertently selfish and hurt them as you didn't noticed they had been crying or bother to ask them or think about them..you remain oblivious over what happened until you reflect later on or hear from someone else.

In my DH case he will turn everything on it being someone/something else to blame and he's a victim.
He struggles with accountability and can't see other people's perspective and accept it differs from his own. Because he can't see his part in situations or accept other perspectives therefore he is right and they are wrong.

In both our scenarios we act badly and are mean. But there is no ill intent or insight. In my case insight happened on reflection but that was later on and needed outside input from others to enable me to be accountable.

With psychopathy they can't experience empathy so only know right and wrong like a ticking boxes exercise but due to having no emotions in regards to it. It's all null and void and just doesn't matter either way. So I guess it's reduced to what potential consequences serves them better. Killing this person to get xyz or not get xyz..they really want xyz so it's worth it. There are functioning psychopaths which I describe as not so impulsive so prison consequences would be factored in..whereas the psychopaths in prison are more instant gratification and impulsive.

Narcissists and sociopaths feel positive feelings (power/pleasure) hurting others. So where logically they know it's wrong, they essentially get rewarded in their acts as they feel good. So to them it's not bad. Hurting others is a necessary consequence to them feeling happy.

Psychopaths Narcissists etc have ill intent from the get go.

Own your flaws, or never know yourself.

This is a really interesting post. Thank you.

Many years ago when I was trapped in a really toxic difficult relationship with a man who was exploiting me, stealing from me and abusing me etc.

After a few drinks one night he looked at me and said "I know that what I am is a sociopath and yet, even knowing that, I can't stop myself being the way I am so I thought I might as well enjoy it and profit from it."

I think for the most part people are a product of their environment. If they have spent their lives being treated badly they will treat others badly. They will know it’s wrong, but can justify it to themselves. Some are narcissistic or a psychopath. Kids tend to be bullies if they are bullied at home, sometimes kids will do horrible things because other kids are. I have looked after kids that were lovely, but as soon as they played with a particular child became very nasty little bullies to the other children.

My daughter had a friend when she was younger, this kid was lovely, such a nice kid to have over. It turned out that the kid is a psychopath. I know I will see her on the news one day for doing something truly horrible.

I think it’s usually a case of them knowing they’re doing wrong in the eyes of the law or other people but they convince themselves that they’re an exception to the “rules”, usually by way of a victim mentality.

They usually know that what they’re doing is wrong enough to hide it, but even when they get caught they’ll usually try to blame-shift (“I couldn’t tell you because I knew how you’d react!”) or self-justify.

In their eyes they’re overtaxed so it’s fair enough for them to fiddle their expenses and everyone would do it if they were smart enough. They cheated because you were mean or because they were stressed at work and you weren’t putting out enough. They tell you to shut up because you aren’t agreeing with them and they’re sick of “trying to be heard”.

I think there can also be genuine neurological deficiencies like weak memory or lack of empathy. So they make up backstories that fit their idea of themselves as decent people regardless of what actually happened and convince themselves that must be what occurred.

I remember my ex berating me for something he convinced himself I’d done (he’d exaggerated something small and fair into a litany of accusations). He seemed gobsmacked when I could categorically prove him wrong. I don’t know if he was shocked that the evidence let him because he delusionally believed his own story, or if he was just surprised to have been caught red-handed in an outrageous lie.

Or they feel baffled that other people don’t seem to see it as imperative that all their needs are unconditionally met in the same way they do.

I think for the most part people are a product of their environment. If they have spent their lives being treated badly they will treat others badly. They will know it’s wrong, but can justify it to themselves.

@Guest100 I also think that people who are never expected to take responsibility for their behaviour can end up treating others badly, because they’ve never been held accountable nor expected to apologize for nasty behaviour.

They may not mean to hurt other people, they just do what they like and expect to be forgiven.

It's a really, really interesting question!
When my ex husband was unfaithful, he convinced himself that I was the problem. It was a way to justify his behaviour and, from what I gather, it's a classic textbook response!
So I'm guessing that this is what they do, almost as a self-preservation thing.

Unless you're talking about objectively bad things like murder, child abuse etc then it's all subjective and often, traits that you think are bad but aren't necessarily inherently so.

Or traits that you think are bad but don't realise you engage in yourself.

There are plenty of objectively bad things not as dramatic as child abuse or murder. Domestic abuse including emotional abuse or coercive control, stealing from a friend, hitting your dog, telling your teenage niece she’s fat, screwing over a colleague etc are all unlikely to make the news but not things that most people do, just a fairly sizeable minority of people.

Did he apologize?

Not really. He said, “Well, that [meaning his version of events] is what it seemed like to me!” So sort of vaguely alluding to the possibility that he had it wrong without actually admitting it outright or saying sorry for the false accusations. Which is a pretty classic approach for high-conflict people.

They're mostly blinded by greed and selfishness and simply don't give a toss about anyone nor anything else. It's ALL me, me, me! They know exactly what they are but don't care.

People find ways to justify all of those things to themselves though.

Emotional abuse and coercive control is particularly easy to justify. They convince themselves they are right to take control because the other person makes bad decisions or is disrespecting them, that shouting and screaming was just a normal couple argument, that the other person is being over-sensitive or dramatic about it.

Hitting dogs (and children) is easily passed off as reasonable punishment for bad behaviour, needed for the purposes of training, and proponents have massive cognitive dissonance around it if they are shown the evidence proving it's harmful.

Telling your teenage niece she's fat is for the good of her health, you're concerned about her.

You didn't screw over a colleague, it was fair competition and they had it coming. You're there to get on in business, not make friends. This is why you're more successful.

I know three objectively bad people. They use the Jimmy Saville balance sheet method for considering themselves a good guy. Jimmy Saville did all of that charity work so that on balance he could consider himself a good guy. They are always deluded.