To wonder if people who are objectively bad people know they’re bad, or if they’re just delusional?

[OneElatedMintReader]

I’ve been reflecting on some people I’ve known (my ex in particular), and it’s made me wonder: do people with awful character traits - those who lie, manipulate, or just treat others terribly - know deep down that they’re terrible people?

Do they ever reflect and think, “Yeah, I’m the problem here,” or do they convince themselves they’re in the right to avoid facing the truth? Is it self-delusion or just a complete lack of self-awareness?

I’m curious if anyone has insights or examples, either from psychology or personal experiences, about whether people like this can ever recognise their own flaws - or if they just go through life blissfully unaware of how awful they are.

No, I think most people think of themselves as the victim / hero of their story. Even though it's fiction, Thanos thought himself a hero making tough decisions for the greater good. Everyone else thought him a mass murderer.

This reminded me of Requiem for a Dream when Sara is asked why she doesn't report her son for repeatedly stealing her TV to sell for drug money and she says "He's my only son, he's all I have".

Some good books on the topic:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/132615.Snakes_in_Suits

And

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12391521-the-psychopath-test?ref=nav_sb_ss_1_15

I think just looking at the thread so many people have replied about other people but it’s rare anyone admits on here to being anything other than sweetness and light! For my part, I know I have some awful traits, countered by good ones, and I know I’ve done some awful things, equally countered by good ones. I’m ashamed of some things I’ve done but I think the question about what makes a ‘good’ or ‘bad’ person is impossible to answer; we’re no more or less than a series of deeds.

I really feel this. My 'best friend' at school constantly put me down, took the piss out of me and tried her very best to make sure nobody thought I was cool or attractive. I know her and her family well and I don't think she's a bad person, in fact in many ways she's kind and supportive... to people who aren't me.

I've said plenty of things 'in jest' which in fact I know were hurtful to the recipients. I always try to do better but even in my mellow middle age I'm capable of being quite cutting. I don't think I'm a nasty piece of work, but there's definitely a balance.

I work with criminals. My experience is that they know and they have enough awareness to tailor their behaviour to the audience. So to a loved one/ someone they don't want to lose/ someone they're trying to get into a relationship with, they'll admit some failings. But will pass the responsibility for change onto the other person. A "maybe you'll be the person who'll tame me". They will blame their offences on "she stopped having sex with me etc etc". They know, they rarely are put in circumstances such as good therapy where they voice it and own it.

I suppose most of us have a limited frame of reference to benchmark ourselves against, and adjust that to make sure we always fall into our own definitions of "good". If you're currently morally bankrupt but operate just about within the confines of the law, you might define "good" as "not a criminal". If you ARE a criminal, you might define "good" as "not a serial killer." We'd probably consider most of the people in jail to be quite bad people, but they obviously consider themselves to have some moral superiority because they aren't child sex offenders, hence why child sex offenders are regularly murdered by other inmates- sometimes even other paedophiles who are not "as bad".

People also find easy ways to justify bad behaviour and to find easy ways to make themselves feel like they've balanced the scales. If you send a string of abusive messages to someone to intimidate them, you probably convinced yourself they gave you no choice in the matter because of something they did. You hit your girlfriend because she provoked you, not because you're a bad person. And then you posted an anti-bullying meme on facebook and bought your mate a pint, so you're a good guy overall.

From experience such people have enablers around them allowing their awful behaviours to continue unchecked. I’m not entirely sure they’re aware but certainly feel insecure about themselves which leads to abusing / controlling others.

Interesting post! I work with criminals and they often report poor mental health when they committed their crime, saying something like “I don’t recognise the person who did wrong…I know I was really struggling with x..y..z If I hadn’t been in such a bad way I wouldn’t have done what I did”

You can justify anything morally. There is no objective standard for "bad" or "truth"

I often work with sex offenders and other criminals. The burglars and violent offenders usually have good insight into their crimes and the impact on victims and anyone else more widely involved/impacted. The sex offenders rarely do. It's either not them, was exaggerated, a complete lie, a misunderstanding or some other bullshit excuse.

I was married to a narcissist. He was brought up with an enabler mother who saw the court paperwork which included details of him raping me, assaulting me and general emotional abuse and coercion. She chose not to believe me and told everyone i had exaggerated. I think he knew exactly what he was doing. It was a game from the get go and every move and word is calculated for long term goals. So whilst he knew what he was doing, did he truly know the huge impact it would have on me? Not sure about that. Did he care? Absolutely not one bit.

For those who work with criminals. Can you answer this question for me please.

How do child abusers live with themselves? If someone is a good person in the community, works hard, has friends etc

Then beats their children, neglects them, emotionally abuses them.

How do they live in those two worlds? They obviously don't see themselves as a bad. I'd be really interested in an explanation for this.

I think you've put it perfectly.

If you watch reality prison programmes it's fascinating because every single one says they are innocent and it was a miscarriage of justice.

I even remembered one guy who had taken a woman into the street and stabbed her who said he'd done nothing wrong and his sentence was unfair.

Everyone is the hero of their own story. Yet everyone looks at others as being to blame.

OP - why are you starting a thread examining other people's failings rather than your own? You can't do anything about other people's flaws - but you can stop yours. Channel that energy into every time you've been the "villain"/done something mean in your life and think how you could have been better.

If everyone did that, rather than placing the blame on others, the world would be a much nicer place!

People do assume others are like them and project their guilt onto others (as a form of self-preservation?) so they will usually think others are the same but just hiding it.

I've known people who act rudely and selfishly who just think of themselves as 'honest' or 'spicy'. Those who do bad genuinely things often blame others.

Do they know they are horrible people? I once waited till I was outside walking down the street with my abusive ex (knew he wouldn't be able to react badly in public) and said to him, "I hope that when your daughter grows up she meets a man just like you." Dear reader, you have never seen a look of such hatred as he directed at me. He knew exactly what he was and me seeing that he knew it gave me a tiny bit of satisfaction.

You shouldn't underestimate the number of people who are eaten up with self-loathing.

If there is one thing that I have learnt in my 60 years, it's that people can justify any behaviour to themselves.
They paint the picture that they want to see, facts being sometimes completely irrelevant.

Yes, I think often people who behave terribly think everyone else is doing the same, or would do if they had the guts, and they are just playing the game and doing what they have to to survive/get ahead.

Nobody is all good or all bad.

I've certainly reflected on things I've done in the past that have hurt others. Doesn't make me good or bad.

I'm sure I once read even psychopaths are not all bad. Don't quote me on that though, I believe I've met one and he was a shell of a person, seemed nothing but hateful. I wouldn't get close enough to one to find out.

I think it's a mix, OP.

There are definitely people who fool themselves. They are awful manipulators or whatever, but lack any insight.

There are also people who know they are doing things wrong, having a bad effect on those around them, but can't seem to get a hold of their lives. They continuously make selfish decisions. They often don't feel good about themselves and look for ways to escape - addicts in my experience are often like this.

A few people know they are objectively bad, but don't care. They don't have normal moral qualms.

I used to have a person close to me who was like that a bit. He had some moral standards, but not much ability to empathize (other than with a very few people, like his immediate family.) Essentially, he had no empathy or ability to empathize. He would try and live up to his own standards of right and wrong, but he did not feel at all bad about doing something that he did not think he had an obligation to do. He knew this was not necessarily considered socially normal though and kept it to himself. Some people I think are very much like this but also have even less of a sense of obligation.

I think everyone can do bad things, but yes some people do seem to continue set patterns of behaviour. Personally I have found men don't "dwell" on anything they have done - they rarely reflect. Sadly this is why I suspect so many of them repeat relationships over and over with different women and never feel any real depth.

Think it depends … obviously some people are narcissists and I think they honestly believe that they can justify their poor behaviours and lies.

Really interesting thread. I’ve only been close to one person like this: my mother, who I’m certain is a “vulnerable narcissist”. From what I observed she was definitely delusional— terrifyingly so, inasmuch as she couldn’t accept any blame even when she’d said or done something undeniably awful. She experienced trauma and neglect as a child and I think this led her to develop the ability to deny reality as a coping mechanism. I’ve never known her to admit to her mistakes and she will always cast herself as the victim of any situation. Throughout my childhood she lied to me about all kinds of things then flatly denied them — I can see why these people are so good at gaslighting because they’re able to convince themselves that whatever they say is true. Once I realised this about her, I calmly called her out on it and she looked terrified, like she’d been found out. I realised then that while there was a flicker of awareness, facing up to her flaws was so frightening and shame-inducing that she’d rather do anything to escape having to do this, even if it meant losing contact with me and my kids. I think fear and shame run deep in many narcissists, so delusion is a way of coping with this.

In my experience, a lot of people who routinely treat others badly, take advantage of others, bully, coercively control, etc. believe/have convinced themselves that the other person/people don't really mind. If they did, they wouldn't put up with it, right?

A surprising number of people genuinely don't think about the wants or needs of their partners, friends, family, even their young children. They go for exactly what is easiest and most comfortable for themselves and don't even think about who it hurts (even if they themselves would HATE it and consider it incredibly unfair if things were reversed) because it's up to the other person to represent THEIR own interests and push equally hard if they want something different. Everything is win-lose, zero-sum, and combative, never caring or cooperative or a willing compromise.