To think something has gone wrong in schools? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz0m2x30p4eo

[RebelBabybel]

From the BBC : school exclusions have doubled in the last 10 years.

I’ve worked in schools for 30 years : KS1/Early Years.

When I first started I was expected to do : hand written, detailed plans. Assessments. Handwritten reports. I had no TA. I had a blackboard. Children had books. I had to be firm with behaviour, schools had very clear behaviour policies in place, and the head would have an overview, was visible, check classes, be the ‘go to’ person if anything was difficult to manage.

Over the years, particularly in the Early Years things have changed massively.
My latest role has involved a manager who is mostly on the computer and rarely interacts with the children. No planning, no assessment. Resources are put out, but there is an ethos that it’s ‘wrong’ to show the children how to use them. Therefore children don’t use jigsaws as puzzles, they take the pieces out and transport them round the classroom. A doctors role play is set up, but with no input as to what the resources are there are for or how to role play ‘being a doctor’.

There is an expectation, a ‘box’ of what constitutes ‘normal’ behaviour : even with very young children. Any child who is outside this box, is often labelled ‘I think they’ve got autism, I think they’ve got ADHD’ without a formal assessment. These children - rather than getting to know them, or putting clear strategies in place, are quickly labelled as difficult : and fall into a stereotype that causes a negative cycle. There seems to be little ‘fault’ addressed to the teaching style, and the ‘fault??’ is centred on the child, I’d also argue that it is NOT a fault. It’s called being a child.

Children seem to be very readily excluded from schools without the adults fully questioning their teaching style and whether that might be at fault.

To be completely honest, teaching was far easier 30 years ago. Children were better behaved, and there was far better, stronger support from senior management. It felt more like a team, rather than:

an SLT who are in meetings, on a computer, off to conferences, in the staff room, pushing ‘new’ initiatives and criticising their staff.

It's also massively tedious and inaccurate to see the usual conflation of SEN and behavioural issues here.

Many children with SEN don't have behavioural issues and are therefore ignored and failed.

Many behavioural issues have nothing to do with SEN at all. In fact these kids with behavioural issues hugely distress many SEN kids and prevent them from learning even more than they do for other children.

It's utterly lazy and inaccurate to try to blame SEN children for the majority of behaviour problems in classrooms. Some SEN kids may have behaviour issues because they shouldn't be in mainstream or because the school/ LA is refusing the support they need to cope in mainstream (that was promised as part of moving most SEN children to mainstream). But to pretend they are the main cause of classroom behaviour problems is absurd.

The classes are twice the size they should be (and are in countries with decent education systems), the curriculum is ridiculous and school is started much too young before it's developmentally appropriate. And the whole ethos in most schools is horrendous, all about conformity and crushes all love of learning out of most of the keenest children who arrive there at 4 or 5 as sponges for information and wanting to learn. It's abhorrent to try to blame children with disabilities for this state of affairs.

I watched BBC Breakfast when this came out and they had the CEO from Chance UK saying a 7 year old boy was excluded for two days for stealing an apple from the canteen to give his mum who he was worried about as there's not enough food at home.

I'd just like to say I don't recognise this course of action in the school I work in. We've had similar and that child has been given support as has the family.

Do any other school staff on here feel exclusion would be the action taken in their school?

I am 100% sure that that is not the actual story but schools, due to confidentiality rules, aren't allowed to say what really happened.

The whole thing smacks of a kid claiming that they were sent out of the lesson for asking to borrow a pen when actually they swore at the teacher and called them a cunt when the teacher suggested that they might want to start bringing a pen in.

The number excluded in the 1994–95 school year, the first full year after the implementation of the sections of the 1993 Act, stands at over 12000.

In 2003/04, 9,880 children were permanently excluded from schools in England.

In the 2022/2023 academic year, there were 9,376permanent exclusions in England, which was a record high and a 44% increase from the previous year. The rate of permanent exclusions was 0.04, meaning there were 4 permanent exclusions for every 10,000 pupils.

Let's try again.

And of course there is a lot we can do. The vast majority of school staff have been raising awareness and talking about it for years. Actual solutions not just waffle and word soup. No one wants to listen or do anything real about it though. Definitely not past governments.

It was hilarious when Covid hit and hundreds of parents started bleating on about inequality, resources , and what not because it was THEIR kid being on the receiving end if it, and hence schools and students have been struggling for years. They also went quiet when things went back to normal, because THEIR kid was fine again.

You want solutions? More SEN schools, more funding for help and support services , early start, SS, CAMHS (all mental health services really )etc., smaller class sizes and funding for schools, early intervention and support, changes to the curriculum and the way we assess things. I could go on and on and on. No one is listening though.

Kids need to be punished for bad behaviour or it just disrupts the lesson for everyone else. Also for the safety of the other children and staff.

If bad behaviour escalates then that's going to be mean exclusion. It's poor parenting mostly or coming from poor backgrounds, but teachers are hamstrung when it comes to disciplining children. The only avenue the school have is exclusion.

Nope, and I don't fully buy it either.

Last perm ex we had was over a child bringing a knife to school and threatening a staff member with it, to give you an idea for the kind of thing we do it for.

I agree. I think this is highly unlikely to be true. It's a sensationalist story designed to make out schools are excluding children for no good reasons and are to blame for all that is wrong with society...!

I do think kids, by and large, will respect strong boundaries and discipline when it comes to school (and in general). Kids test boundaries and if they're weak they'll escalate.

But behaviour doesn’t mean bad or deliberately naughty behaviour. It can be anxious behaviours, tics, stammers, crying when something goes wrong etc. It doesn’t make them poorly behaved but it does mean the teacher needs to make sure their needs are met which can still be disruptive to other children. (Said as a parent of highly anxious child that wants so hard to be good but has issues controlling emotions).

Balancing all the needs of children in the class is a massive challenge for any teacher.

Just one example. I have one children who needs to move around, talk or make noises constantly either with their voice or with objects. Another child is hugely sensitive to noise and can't bear working with lots of noise. If either don't have their needs met they become distressed.

Absolutely. Thats really my point. If I can't meet the needs of just two children then I have no hope with a class of 30+.

That's a very upsetting story and although I don't work in schools I know a lot of teachers and staff and I find this so hard to believe as it doesn't fit with their ethos and attitude, was there perhaps more to the story? Did the child headbutt a member of staff and use a racial slur and it's being reported as something else entirely?

There is no longer any societal consensus of what constitutes poor conduct. Teachers really are at the sharp end of this.

was there perhaps more to the story? Did the child headbutt a member of staff and use a racial slur and it's being reported as something else entirely?

I suspect that is exactly what’s happened but why let the truth get in the way of a good story!

Not in society but people wouldn't get away with poor conduct in the workplace (for the most part). You have to behave and do your job or you'll be on a disciplinary and eventually dismissed. The same applies to school.

If kids aren't taught discipline and boundaries in school, then they won't cope in the workplace.

I agree with you that our brains naturally want to learn. And I am not saying that you don’t need to know anything at all because you can google it. What I’m saying is progress and digital modernisation has changed the world and that the curriculum and qualifications system needs to be updated to reflect that.

We also need to take into consideration that our children ARE able to Google literally anything at any time or use AI and that this undoubtedly has an impact on motivation and changes the traditional way we educate people. I’m suggesting that we should update how we measure intelligence and what we teach. Im sure you’d agree with me that the system needs an overhaul.

They're not coping. Look at the rise of the NEET.

Completely agree with everything you say here.

The policy of "inclusion" has collided with curriculum changes that make the learning inaccessible to too many children (especially those with SEN) add to that an attitude from a significant minority that school is a pointless waste of time and/or their child can do no wrong.

I feel the need to say that the vast majority of the SEN children I work with are an absolute delight. Polite, well behaved, and grateful for the help. The same is true for the majority of ESL children. In fact some of the hardest working, most focused children are ESL. The worst behaviour comes from children who are either neglected (and I think there's far more in this category than anyone realises) or who are overly pandered to by indulgent parents.

Perhaps we are moving towards a post work/post literate society where large swathes of the population will be passive media consumers on UBI.. I wonder what 'jobs' will remain and what schooling will look like when an educated populace is liability 😂

But behaviour doesn’t mean bad or deliberately naughty behaviour. It can be anxious behaviours, tics, stammers, crying when something goes wrong etc. It doesn’t make them poorly behaved but it does mean the teacher needs to make sure their needs are met which can still be disruptive to other children. (Said as a parent of highly anxious child that wants so hard to be good but has issues controlling emotions).

And such children would have far fewer anxious behaviours in appropriately sized classes with half as many children in, and a calm learning environment where chaos/ violence wasn't tolerated: it's not their SEN that's the problem, it is schools not providing a decent educational environment.

Im not sure why you quoted me here? I’m talking about updating our education system to reflect our modern society and also about how to motivate our young people, not about not educating people at all?

To add to this, teacher's are acutely aware they aren't providing the best learning environment for children and it's currently. one of the hardest parts of the job. I cannot split myself into any more pieces than I do.

@Sherrystrull it must be quite soul-destroying. As I said in an earlier post, from my perspective as a parent the class teachers and TAs are incredible. The problems are incompetent and incapable SENCOs, Head Teachers and Local Authorities.