To be so looking forward to how Beth will kill Jamie

[Belle82]

I am really sad Costner didn’t come back for the second half of S5.
But oh I am so looking forward to watch what Beth will do to Jamie and to wipe the smug look off Sarah’s face.

I know they’re just characters but I am loving the last few episodes so far.

@DamselinDistress24 but we’re looking at it from a UK perspective. Beths abortion was Montana in the nineties…. And understanding the history of the way the indigenous people were treated, and that it was a clinic for native Americans, and explains that bit (although still a bit far fetched, but I took it as one of Taylor’s political virtue signals he loves to shoe horn into the whole Yellowstone saga and spin offs)

I thought that the reason Beth was sterilised was because it was at the Reservation Clinic and there was a government policy of sterilising Native American women instead of simply terminating the pregnancy. The receptionist explained it to Jamie and suggested he take her elsewhere and he said it was fine without discussing it with Beth.

To be honest I thought it was because he was supremely thick and didn't give a shit about his sister's future.

I wish she'd told Rip instead 😥

ETA Cross posted!

Surely there was still a requirement for patient consent for permanent sterilisation, informed consent?

It was the 1990s, not the 1890s.

Anyone watched the spin offs? Any of them any good?

just watching first ones of 5B. Really disappointed Costner and the co-creator couldn’t find a way to bury their differences and make it work. It feels like it will be a weaker show without a figurehead.

new episodes have reminded me how much I love the soundtrack to this show though and their use of “real” people - cowboys, rodeo and the spur maker

Beths abortion was Montana in the nineties…. And understanding the history of the way the indigenous people were treated, and that it was a clinic for native Americans, and explains that bit

Exactly @Thesebloominhorses Indigenous people were treated as though they were barely more functional than animals. If you watch the backstory series 1883 and especially 1923, this becomes very clear.

I mean, you do have to allow for a little dramatic license (after all, Yellowstone is basically a modern Western soap opera, and they are not exactly known for the plausibility of their storylines) but it's actually not so far-fetched as to be impossible to believe.

And they'd still just have been doing tubal ligations, which would not stop a woman conceiving and carrying her own kids (she'd have to have IVF though).

There is no way there were doing hysterectomies unnecessarily. Much longer, more expensive, more risky operation (and might become open abdominal surgery if it's not working laparoscopically) ...and totally unnecessary since TL is usually effective.

it's actually not so far-fetched as to be impossible to believe.

The sterilisation of a teenage girl without informed patient consent is, to me.

The hysterectomy, when TL was effective and much faster and easier, also.

And it was a clinic for native Americans, but it was blatantly obvious she wasn't one ..... So you'd imagine the staff would have been cautious.

Forced sterilisation including hysterectomy without consent was apparently not uncommon up until 70s but doesn’t work for the timeline of the show.

The sterilisation of a teenage girl without informed patient consent is, to me.

From Wikipedia: "In the 1974 case Relf v Weinberger, a district court found that Department of Health and Human Services regulations on sterilization were "arbitrary and unreasonable" because they failed to adequately guarantee the consent of the patient."

"In 1977, lawyer Michael Zavalla filed a case with Washington State after three Cheyenne women from Montana were sterilized without their consent."

So while there's definitely dramatic license to suggest that it was still happening in the 1990s, it 100 percent happened. Given that not all Indigenous Americans look the same and that these clinics were already playing fast and loose with consent, if someone came in saying they wanted an abortion, I doubt they would have too many qualms about it or demand to see proof of ethnicity.

I'd have to watch it back but I thought Jamie signed the consent papers.

I received medical care in the US in the 1990s as a child. My parents (medics) were horrified that within 10 minutes of arriving at hospital, I'd been injected with several medications by a healthcare assistant, without any medical history being taken or their or my consent being asked. I can remember my mother's jaw dropping and her going "WHAT DID YOU JUST DO?! What did you GIVE her?!". I ended up hallucinating and later trying to mutilate myself in the bathroom with the cutlery from my meal.

To put this into context, I'd arrived at that hospital with an infected insect bite! It was a bizarre experience which made us all have a serious lack of trust in the US system.

My father had a similar experience in 2019 when he went to a walk in centre in New York with a cough that he knew
needed simple antibiotics. Came out having been hooked up to an IV, on Oxygen for several hours and injected with a variety of medications without being asked - including the flu, shingles and pneumonia jabs,
which he'd already had! Sent out with a 10 day supply of Amoxcillin and Prednisone. Remember...he's a medic...he knew he just needed a simple course of antibiotics. He was baffled at how quickly everything was done without consent or explanation.

So he's just grabbed an anachronism and built a central (the central?) plot point around it?

I still don't understand why they would have been doing hysterectomies?

TL was effective enough and the op much cheaper, faster etc than a hysterectomy.

These are bizarre experiences.

Aren't the medics afraid of being sued?

In the land of litigation.

So while there's definitely dramatic license to suggest that it was still happening in the 1990s, it 100 percent happened.

I don't doubt it did.

I doubt it did in the 1990s.

And I doubt it involved hysterectomy.

And I doubt, no matter how all native American people may look different, that a 100% Caucasian, wasp, blond young woman; wouldn't have been conspicuous and given them pause.

Came out having been hooked up to an IV, on Oxygen for several hours and injected with a variety of medications without being asked - including the flu, shingles and pneumonia jabs

Is this because they want to charge as much as possible?

That's quite literally what my parents said at the time, you can see why there is such a litigation culture here.

One of the medications I was injected with has a high rate of allergic reactions. The reason I had severe hallucinations is because I'm ND and one of the medications is contraindicated for children in particular with ADHD. They didn't think to check.

The pneumonia vaccine is only supposed to be given once in a lifetime and can result in anaphylactic shock. This was carefully explained here in the UK when my dad had it (the first time 🙄) and the nurse patted her epi-pen and defib packs to reassure him.

In New York they literally didn't tell him, stuck it in his arm then billed him as he was leaving.

Maybe they earn more from the drug companies than they could be sued
for!

And I doubt, no matter how all native American people may look different, that a 100% Caucasian, wasp, blond young woman; wouldn't have been conspicuous and given them pause.

My daughter has enough indigenous ancestry (not American) to qualify for indigenous scholarships etc snd she is blonde-haired and blue-eyed with skin like milk. I have literally never been asked to supply proof of her ethnicity when filling out a form.

At any rate, this is just what the term “dramatic license” means. Thousands of films and TV shows that are “based on a true story” change when events actually happened, manufacture characters out of two or three different real people, attribute actions to different people than who originally undertook them, leave stuff out etc.

This isn’t even claiming to be based on a true story, it’s just riffing on something that was known to happen and ratcheting up the drama (by scripting it into a more recent context) because it’s a soap opera and that’s just part of the form.

According to Wikipedia, “In 1971, Dr. James Ryan stated that he favored hysterectomies over tubal ligations because "it's more of a challenge... and it's [a] good experience for the junior resident"”

Oh, it absolutely is.

And to earn commission from the pharmaceutical companies.

We've got family & friends there who always seem to be life threateningly ill and on a new drug treatment. In reality, there's very little wrong with them.

I missed the other posts saying similar...feel free to gloss over...

Wasn't it that Jamie took Beth to a clinic on a reservation so that no one would know her and they could keep it secret? I am remembering from watching the episode what feels like years ago now, but at the time, any Native American woman who got an abortion was automatically given a hysterectomy, I presume as punishment/racist population control policy. Asshole though he is, Jamie had no choice about the hysterectomy, it was the only way she could have the abortion. And since the clinic was in a reservation for Native American women, pesky things like consent weren't needed.

Until the 90s Irish hospitals were carrying out symphysiotomies and sawing through women’s pubic bones without consent - history (and present most likely) is riddled with these kinds of scandals.

Jamie showed them Beth’s ID too, didn’t he, to explain that they ‘had’ to use that clinic as otherwise the news would get out. You’d think that would have made them wash their hands of it.

It's a diametrically different scenario (scholarship applications claiming indigenous ancestry, versus, being assumed to be of indigenous ancestry for the purpose of abortion and sterilisation, without explicit consent.

The person who applied and got the scholarship (and their family), are going to be delighted if the get it, and keep very quiet if they don't actually qualify.

The person who was permanently sterilised without explicit consent, and their family, are not going to be delighted and keep quiet. You are likely to be sued or accused of a crime at best ...... in the US you are likely to be shot at worst.
You are likely to end up in the papers. Your establishment may end up being closed down.

It's not really comparable.

And on that subject, another part of the storyline that doesn't work is how long it took Beth to tell her father, or anyone else, what Jamie dis. No way was that not coming out til her mid-late 30s

But I would presume his opinion/approach wasn't followed all the time by every clinic in the US or anywhere else; when time, resources etc are at a premium.
There's is also more risk.

That may not have been of concern to Dr Ryan but might have been to less gung ho clinicians.

My Mum was sterilised in the late 70s and it was TL.

But anyway, it's an anachronism in this show, it's a shit plot point, especially because it's so pivotal/central.

I don't know what to say, other than no wonder the US has so many conspiracy theorists.

At any rate, this is just what the term “dramatic license” means

Maybe it's just me, but when there are huge holes in something that is being made pivotal/central to the plot, it taints the whole thing.

You're just irritated and eye rolling, instead of absorbed in & enjoying the story.

And on that subject, how many people have they killed and thrown down that ravine in no mans land? Don't any of them have families? Wouldn't there families have the slightest chance of knowing where they were last working/living? Wouldn't the coincidences of missing persons who were last known to be working again YS not start to build up?