To think the tactics of CBR UK are disgusting? Trigger warning - pro life.

[MistressoftheDarkSide]

I've been seething since Saturday when I encountered the organisation CBR UK on one of the busiest parts of our town centre.

CBR UK are a fundamental pro-life organisation claiming to have the interests of women traumatised by abortion at heart. Actually their roots are in the US and are underpinned by fundamentalist Christian beliefs.

Their way of educating and supporting women is to display 6 x 8 feet technicolor pictures of the aftermath of abortion in full view of women and children to get their point across.

A look at their Facebook page will prove to you I am not making this up. They place a warning sign ahead if the images, and also warn that they live film their activities, but it's obviously lip service.

They hand out leaflets and try to engage people

I challenged one of the very smug beatific older woman and suggested they must really hate women, but no, it's because they love and want to protect us apparently. And "God" - which slipped out as I took my leave and she called out God bless you. To which I responded how dare you bring God into this - and her parry was - why do you hate him that much?

Anyway, I'm posting this to make you aware that you might come up against this while doing your Christmas shopping.

Whatever your views on abortion, (Mine are pro choice and pro it's noone else's Goddamn business except a woman and her doctor) can we agree that this kind of "awareness raising" is almost psychological terrorism and should not be on our high streets in such graphic forms?

Women who have been rated, suffered traumatic medical miscarriages and are possibly accompanied by curious children don't need this shit rubbed in their faces while doing their Christmas shopping - or at any time.

AIBU?

Personally I find martyrdom deeply unattractive and the ultimate in futility.....

Maybe someone should blow up some close up pictures of caesarean incisions and 3rd degree perineal wounds (before suturing) - really big and laminated. Then go and shove it in those people's faces - because that's what they're advocating for. If they want to push the line that abortions are traumatic, lets include childbirth in that conversation.

Nobody is trying to deprive anyone of looking up information that they want to know. You can do your own research if it matters to you. What you're advocating is forcing distressing and manipulative content on women to make them do what you want because you think they aren't smart enough to research if they want to or to have been exposed to pro-life arguments.

You think that you know better than women what's best for them. That's why you have the presumption to think you can personally and unilaterally decide that a choice forms a "net negative for women" and have no recourse when reminded of how very many women disagree; that's when you suddenly decide it's not actually about women. It's about what you think it should be about, and the more you post, the clearer it becomes what that is. Annabella.

If you really want to support the rights of women to choose and be protected from trauma on the High Street, please feel free to go to their Facebook page and express your views. They are posting their "good works" across the country this weekend and I think they need to know they are out of order.

@Annabella92 this is why people with your views are scary, very scary. Because, you are presented with excellent, logical arguments yet you can't reasonably come back with anything of sense. Instead, you will ignore all these points, you will bury your head in the sand, you will ignore the huge potential suffering and danger of these types of protests and views.

It may be religious ignorance, it may be misplaced naiveté, it doesn't matter, it is very frightening and dangerous. Ignorance is dangerous for all of us.

I love MN. It was thanks to threads like these that challenges to my own naiveté and partial ignorance on one particular subject really made me wake up .

Rubbish. You want that information, you can fill your boots.

If this imagery was shown to my child on TV while I was making lunch, I'd be raging and complain. If it cropped up on his kids You Tube channel, I'd be raging and would complain. So why should we have to tolerate in the street outside Greggs?

And that's before you get to women who've suffered stillbirth/ late term miscarriages. Or the issue of consent of the mother of the photographed foetuses.

It's sick and unethical. As are the weirdos who (wo)man these stands.

I think pro-lifers picked their fight and they’re running with it. It’s a difficult side to fight for as they recieve abuse for it. I respect them for that as you don’t see anyone else highlighting this

Of course pro lifers aren’t the only ones highlighted child poverty and struggles. What a ridiculous thing to say

No they don’t. We want the pressure shame and intimidation of women who DO have abortions, to stop. Look up abortion pictures if you like but the only reason these organisation thrust them into our faces is to be hateful towards women

Imagine being so upset about being deprived of seeing abortion pictures on the high street, but not upset about women being deprived of having bodily autonomy

These anti-choicers think we don’t see what they’re doing

The pro lifers actually tend to be the ones who least want to do anything about child poverty; they want to force more children to be born into it. They passionately argue for children's rights just as long as the child is unformed and unborn and therefore demands nothing, with women's autonomy also a nothing alongside it. Once the child exists, they treat the child and the mother with the same contempt as we have seen on this thread.

Or, as the pastor David Barnhart so eloquently put it:

I’m pro-life. We all start the same way. If people knew how abortion happens it may change their minds. If I was having a medical procedure I would want to know what was happening and how. I’m there with @Annabella92 . I think it’s called informed consent.
Abortion is very quiet in that it’s not normally part of a conversation. (Situations such as rape and a medical condition that’s different - it would be a medical procedure needed).
if people knew what was involved, what a woman had to go through there would be uproar. I mean there would be things put in place to make sure a woman wouldn’t get pregnant and have to make that decision. That saying ‘if a man had to….. there would be a solution straight way.’

So how explicit should the pictures be and where should they be seen? Not outside Lidl. But I wasn’t there.
ive said in earlier posts what we should have in place. We don’t. Some women will know that an abortion was the right thing for them. Others will regret for the rest of their lives.
There is quite rightly so an enormous amount of emotion around this. A lot of eloquent comments and some not so ( I include myself here). A lot of good on both sides of the argument and it’s been both interesting and eye opening in how much there is in common and why some of the differences.
A lot of passion. This is a subject that is almost impossible to remove the emotion.
So as a prolifer I'm expecting to be told to fuck off here by some and would happily go for a coffee with others.

What exactly do you think women go through when they have abortions??

Its no different to giving birth except obviously not early as noticeable.

”We all start the same” TBH is just philosophical waffle that means nothing. So what. It’s not enough to steal women’s bodily autonomy from them.

Interesting you think rape justifies abortion. I thought we started all the same? Surely if you think a foetus has the same autonomy and rights as a woman that wouldn’t matter? You’re basically punishing women for not being raped

Informed consent happens at the point where the decision to have the abortion is taken. Do you really think that women in the UK have abortions without at some point giving valid informed consent? Graphic placards in public places are intimidation, not a means of obtaining consent.

I am pro choice. That is because I live in the real world. It doesn't mean I want more abortions; I want as few abortions as it is possible to have. However, we do not achieve that by banning abortion. We do it by providing outstanding sex and relationship education, starting young. We do it by providing easy, non judgemental and affordable (preferably free) contraception. We do it by ensuring women have excellent maternity leave provision, carer leave and affordable childcare. We do it by supporting women who are in abusive and coercive relationships to make the break safely. We reduce the number of abortions by supporting women. All banning abortion achieves is to kill women.

Strangely enough, the majority of forced birthers - and by this I mean the kind who want to impose their world view onto others and make it law - don't want any of the above, because that would be woke, it would be socialism, it would be enabling welfare.

In an ideal world, there would be no unwanted pregnancies and no need for abortions. But this is the real world and so abortion has to be safe and legal and always there for when things go wrong.

I knew what my abortion involved. I really didn't bat an eyelid a few days later. I know I am a loving, empathetic and compassionate human. I know this about myself with confidence. Yet this didn't really move me. I believe the majority feel this way.
There would be a point later down the line where it would feel different to me and the impact would be different. I'm not sure exactly when but it would be at a stage much further along than when I and I believe most women have their abortions.

Knowing the type of person I am and my values, and the shared experiences and values of so many others having terminations; I feel with all my heart, pro life is not about love for the unborn.

Yes we all started the same.
Rape- a doctor may find that a woman’s mental health depends on it. Punishing women for not being raped? If a woman is going to kill herself then no one is going to survive - but I’m not a doctor.

it’s no different to giving birth? I can’t even begin to expand on that one. I would think you’re not speaking for all women.
But thanks for not telling me to fuck off straight away.

Also agreed!

I did, further back.

Yes my abortion was over 20 years ago but it was all explained to me. I’ve accompanied friends to abortions and the same was explained to them. Really nothing alarming. Dont swallow anti-choice rhetoric that foetuses are born alive and in pain and all of that shite

I think it’s called informed consent.

I'm glad you prefixed that with "I think", because it shows you're open to realising that you don't, in fact, have a clue what informed consent is if you think it involves forcing distressing and manipulative imagery on women exercising their right to bodily autonomy in a way that you don't approve of, on an attempt to coerce them towards your choice, and calling it consensual or informative.

Clinics give women information they need about the procedure, what it involves and so on. If all you were advocating for was clinics explaining that to women, you'd have no pushback and nothing to complain about, because it is what happens. But it's not what you're advocating.

What about if a woman’s mental health depends on not being a mum?

I didn’t tell you to fuck off?

Tell me then what you think happens with an abortion? Have you ever had one? I had one at 17 weeks and yes it was basically the same as giving birth. But tell me what you know better than me

My abortion and that of my friends:

24 hours (or so) before, a woman takes a tablet that stops the foetus’s heart.

Next day a pessary is popped in there to expel to heartbeat-less foetus.

Simply really. And a lot of the same medication is used in miscarriage management

Edith, what information do you think abortion clinics don't give to women that they ought to know?

Why do you think women aren't capable of Googling further if they want to? Do you think pro life resources are not easily available?

As I said before, I would rather people were educated about responsibilities and consequences at an age before they find themselves in a situation were they have to make that decision. Then able to access contraception as needed.
There will always be women caught out. There will sadly always be rape victims and medical conditions- as I said before - I’m not making or trying to make decisions for them.
but I an surprised with the increase of access to contraception that the number of abortions have increased. I’d rather put things in place before hand to help women avoid having to make that decision.

Or we could just have abortion rights AND better contraception access?

Please do tell us what you think happens in abortions that women don’t know about

@EvilsElsasPetSnowman You said before something about telling a prolifer to fuck off.

Mental health issues- if the woman was going to kill herself/ harm herself/ be harmed then that would be a medical decision not mine.

Stops the heart…..