To think the tactics of CBR UK are disgusting? Trigger warning - pro life.

[MistressoftheDarkSide]

I've been seething since Saturday when I encountered the organisation CBR UK on one of the busiest parts of our town centre.

CBR UK are a fundamental pro-life organisation claiming to have the interests of women traumatised by abortion at heart. Actually their roots are in the US and are underpinned by fundamentalist Christian beliefs.

Their way of educating and supporting women is to display 6 x 8 feet technicolor pictures of the aftermath of abortion in full view of women and children to get their point across.

A look at their Facebook page will prove to you I am not making this up. They place a warning sign ahead if the images, and also warn that they live film their activities, but it's obviously lip service.

They hand out leaflets and try to engage people

I challenged one of the very smug beatific older woman and suggested they must really hate women, but no, it's because they love and want to protect us apparently. And "God" - which slipped out as I took my leave and she called out God bless you. To which I responded how dare you bring God into this - and her parry was - why do you hate him that much?

Anyway, I'm posting this to make you aware that you might come up against this while doing your Christmas shopping.

Whatever your views on abortion, (Mine are pro choice and pro it's noone else's Goddamn business except a woman and her doctor) can we agree that this kind of "awareness raising" is almost psychological terrorism and should not be on our high streets in such graphic forms?

Women who have been rated, suffered traumatic medical miscarriages and are possibly accompanied by curious children don't need this shit rubbed in their faces while doing their Christmas shopping - or at any time.

AIBU?

I have never had an abortion per se but I did have to end a pregnancy at 7 weeks.

It was ectopic and my fallopian tube had ruptured and I had internal bleeding. I was in emergency surgery to save my life within an hour of my scan at A&E.

It was a truly horrible thing to go through. Seeing images like the OP saw would upset me greatly. I'm holding my lovely DS whilst writing, he and I would not have been here without that surgery.

Pregnancy and child birth can be life threatening. Restrictive abortion laws can cost women's lives - women have died in countries like Ireland and Poland as doctors are afraid to act until the situation is severe. In Malta a woman with an ectopic pregnancy had to wait several days for life saving treatment as her case had to go before an 'ethics' panel for approval.

Well, the whole point is that there is a cutoff point where we don't think there should be a choice, and currently that's 24 weeks.

It could just as well be any other date.

There is ZERO impact of abortion on
anyone aside from the pregnant woman

Fundamentally it depends on if the fetus counts as 'anyone' because the impact on them as as big as it gets.

You might not believe they counts as 'anyone'. But for those people that do believe they are someone, then surely (irrespective of whether you share their beliefs) you can see that to them it effects more than just the pregnant woman, therefore there is public interest in it to them.

In the same way, I might think that whether or not I eat meat only effects me, because I don't see the life of a chicken as particularly important. But I can see why a vegan who thinks that all life is equal would feel differently, and to some the decision whether or not to eat meat isn't just a personal decision, but one with much wider consequences.

Then you don't have to do it yourself.

yes there obviously has to be a cut off date but the law doesn’t have the monopoly on moral standpoints, this doesn’t mean life starts at 24 weeks.

I don’t really care when life starts. What the pregnant woman wants is the ONLY important factor

@Babyboomtastic really well put, thank you for articulating that.

@EvilsElsasPetSnowman It also doesn't affect me at all if someone deliberately smothers their 1 week old baby aside from being extremely upset to live in a world where that happens.

I don't know, I'm someone who has mixed feelings about abortion, on balance fine with it in first trimester and feeling it needs a justifiable reason after that. I don't think my view is very different from the average person. I don't want US style abortion politics coming here and I don't want abortion-adjacent care such as for miscarriages to be threatened.

But I'm really turned off when people go on about balls of cells and really extreme radical choice language. The anger and black-and-white thinking feels very misplaced. We are going through a moment when many people are questioning whether things they thought were true were just manufactured consensus from shouting people down, and are reacting against it. Bending a little by showing some empathy will avoid the whole thing breaking.

Given the foetus is entirely dependent on the life of the mother it doesn’t get equal say.

How on earth does a foetus inside someone else’s body affect other people? To the point they have a right to have a say on random women’s bodies and entire lives?

Why do pro lifers think that being born is the be all and end all? The fact the child is unwanted in the first place means there’s a likelihood they will lead a life of unhappiness. But hey as long as they cross the birthing finish line, fuck their welfare after they’re born, right?

Can we stop comparing pregnancy childbirth and motherhood with dietary preferences please? Vegans have no right to dictate the diets of others - in fact this is a long running joke because people get pissed off. They certainly don’t have the right to tell women what to do with their lives. I don’t give a fuck what they “believe”. Some half wit’s belief system does not trump women’s bodily autonomy.

Actually crimes affect all of us. Even if we aren’t the victims, it’s in our interest to know when crimes happen on our society.

Abortion is not a crime. YOU might see it as Bad but thankfully you’re not the paragon of all virtues and don’t deserve to know about things that are Bad but also legal.

Why should I show empathy for people who are anti-women? If you’re offended by abortions don’t get one, and get over the fact other women do. It doesn’t affect you. You’ll never even know

And what would you class as justifiable? There’d need to be a really robust framework for forcing births as opposed to granting abortions, what is unjustifiable to you?

@EverEdith I agree with those first few paragraphs. This absolutely needs to happen. Unfortunately, it doesn't, unfortunately men always will have more freedom to do as they please and escape the consequences. I just don't see that changing soon. Removing access to abortion or making it inaccessible won't make the above change come about.
Yes, I wish SAHM were supported to stay at home if they wish. But the abortion agenda won't bring this change about.

I don't know the pro life people on here as individuals. Yet, there is an incredibly common theme of naiveté, ignorance and a refusal to really see what suffering is endured in the name of the pro life agenda, very often under the guise of religious zealotry, which equally involves the collective ignorance, naiveté and refusal of so many to see reality. This is my comparison. The church has horrifically and systematically abused children, yet so many uphold it as the purveyor of all that is right. And chooses to ignore the true suffering it brings to so many, including systematic rape of children. Most will ignore, bury heads in sand and refuse to see reality for the horror it is. This is akin to the pro life agenda. The true extent of suffering will be felt by the women, many hardly even an adult. The unwanted cells that are allowed to become children. The life for so many will be utter misery. The lives of those already alive, other children competing for resources in a care system where no one really cares. They will suffer even more. No good will ever come of this.

This refusal to accept reality is very much like people refusing to accept how rife peodophilia is in religion. Grotesque.

I accept reality. I accept that there's a point where abortion to me feels quite an unpleasant concept. How can we fully understand what is going on with a fetus at a particular point. Life is ugly. Reality is ugly. The well being of living breathing women and the potential misery of so many unborn ' children ' is always going to win for me.

I don't believe for one minute the propaganda material used is accurate in terms of what it is suggesting; gestation period of shown fetus namely. The intent is not to inform. You know this full well. It is coercive and to intimidate by any means. There are many horrors of life you don't want to see thrust in your face. However, in confident the propaganda material here won't even be correct.

Why aren't these protestors fostering all those poor kids who have been sexually abused, beaten, ignored. How about the suicidal teenagers born into a life of misery? Why are they not saving these poor souls? Why so concerned about a clump of cells?

Someone please answer me this.

No-one has to justify anything. It's a legal process. People can have their own feelings about it, but it's not for them to force themselves into others. I have my own opinions on other things people legally do but they are just that, my opinions.

If people find first tri abortions more palatable then please put pressure on the government to improve access and make it easier to get abortion care as opposed to making women feel guilty for a decision that has nothing to do with anyone else

Why aren't these protestors fostering all those poor kids who have been sexually abused, beaten, ignored. How about the suicidal teenagers born into a life of misery? Why are they not saving these poor souls? Why so concerned about a clump of cells?
Someone please answer me this.

Because they don’t wanna help kids they wanna control women

I'm comparing it with something that I do (eat meat), knowing that some people think I'm wrong for doing so because it involves taking a life.

Surely its not beyond most people's reasoning to understand that something which YOU might not think has intrinsic worth, has a huge amount of worth to someone else, and therefore from their perspective is of public interest.

@Babyboomtastic I can see that there may be a small group who believe they are concerned for the well being of a potential life. I don't believe this is what is behind the agenda. These people are more likely the minority puppets in the wider agenda of bodily control.

I refer again to my point that life is often quite unpleasant and a choice has to be made. I adore animals, I want to be a vegan. I can't. I have to live on a medical liquid diet containing animal products. I made a decision. I accept reality; animals are treated appallingly, I don't like it. However, I've decided that my life trumps those views and I will continue to drink my products derived from animals.

No one skips into an abortion clinic for the pure joy of the experience.

Yes of course - but that doesn’t mean I care and it doesn’t mean I need to take the opinions of others into account.

Some people in the world don’t agree that I wear skirts. Am I answerable to them? No. They can fuck off. Pro lifers can fuck off too

@Tittat50 - thanks for the response. I get what you are saying about the foster and looked after kids. But even the government/ councils or whoever should be doing this are not doing enough. I understand that you don’t want children to come into this world just to have an awful life. It’s the wickedest joke. I think pro-lifers picked their fight and they’re running with it. It’s a difficult side to fight for as they recieve abuse for it. I respect them for that as you don’t see anyone else highlighting this. They take a lot of anger. People only have so much energy and time.
In a perfect world abortion wouldn’t be seen as the only choice. Even though I’m pro-life I can’t and wouldn’t make the decision for another woman or even worse a child. There are definitely cases where it wouldn’t be an abortion but a medical procedure that is needed for mental or physical wellbeing of the woman.
The church and all kinds of abuse - yes. Definitely, in the past and sadly probably still some now. It’s a massive betrayal because they are meant to be trying to be Christ like. But all worshippers- definitely not.

Any institution that has pathways to vulnerable people has always been a target for predators. Teaching, medicine, care, police, council / religious run children’s home and it goes on. Pick an institution and there will be some evidence somewhere.( I taught a 13 yr old who was on the sex offenders list.)
I think we disagree on how we see a clump of cells- we were all that to me. I taught science and a fertilised egg is how we all started.

This probably not a good enough to answer your question and I’m sorry.
(From what you’ve written I think if I met you in real life I would like you.)

@EverEdith yes I agree with you on so much. That's a very nice post to read.

I feel quite negatively about most institutions we have been taught really ' care' about us tbh. Maybe this is why it's easier for me to accept the unpleasantness of something like say late term abortions. It is incredibly unpleasant, but I don't want it to be removed as an option. I accept the unpleasantness of reality in many ways.

I don't think I could ever with confidence say this is the exact point I'm now uncomfortable with it and personally wouldn't feel much emotionally. But because of the ramifications of removing choice, I feel very strongly about choice remaining. I also don't believe many truly care about the developing, growing life. This is the frustration regards protests.

When people see anger, something akin to militancy at times on this subject from pro choicers, I believe alot of that is actually fear. When I look at why I can get angry; it's fear really. The suffering would be immeasurable and I'm not someone capable of deluding myself anymore to the reality of what it would do to so many if forced to have a child.

Right. But plenty of people on this thread would rather I was deprived access to the realities of what I was going to do. I need to know so that I can make the right decision.

@Annabella92 I think it's really important to question how accurate and real the propaganda material is. The arguments used, whatever things they say. I can easily believe there are lies, misinformation and horror stories. I don't believe fanatics like some of these protestors are working on facts. It isn't therefore likely to be an accurate representation of reality.

People tout the idea of fetal personhood with no thought given to the fact that if you accept the life of a fetus is of equal value to that of the woman carrying it, the woman carrying it loses all right to physical autonomy, and her body is therefore 'in service' to the state.

The realities of many medical procedures , including abortion, are easily accessible on the Internet these days. It's incredibly insulting to suggest that women contemplating it are incapable of seeking out information for themselves should they need to do so.

The point of this whole thread is that a Saturday afternoon High Street is neither the time or the place to be confronted by large technicolour imagery from a source with an agenda that is using "women's well-being" as a smokescreen for misogynistic and religious rhetoric.

But plenty of people on this thread would rather I was deprived access to the realities of what I was going to do. I need to know so that I can make the right decision.

you can find out about the realities of something like this (actual realities for whatever stage of pregnancy and method might apply) without it needing to be displayed on large placards in a public place. No one is depriving you of information.

No-one else suggesting that, just that it shouldn't be in public without any consideration who will see it. There's plenty of information out there without the need for the hyperbole these organisations use. If anything you should be getting all this information before you even have the procedure, we need informed consent.

It’s a difficult side to fight for as they recieve abuse for it. I respect them for that as you don’t see anyone else highlighting this.

I'm (perhaps cynically) inclined to think quite a few may be all too pleased to feel they're being 'persecuted' for doing what they believe to be their God's work.