Is pre teen a narcissist?

[Preteenstruggle]

DS is 12.
Last Friday at school he got an internal isolation and detention for doing something disrespectful around remembrance day in class. I support the school, the sanction matches the action.

He got back from school on Friday and took himself to his bedroom. I tried talking to him about it and he just shouts and deflects it. Says what can I teach him about history.
He has sent himself to his room, I haven’t told him to or grounded him. I just want to talk about why he did it, the importance of Remembrance Day, then we can move on.
So since Friday, he has been out of his room only for school and for breakfast/dinner/lunch. Then straight back to his room after shouting at everyone about how we shout at him.
We haven’t shouted at him, but I have told him this isn’t going away. We will discuss it and life doesn’t move forward until we do.

This has been a week now. He is a very sociable boy. Talks to friends on the PlayStation (in the lounge), plays football out the front, goes fishing at weekends. So he’d rather give all that up, instead of just talking to me about the stupid thing he did. A whole week without interaction with his friends is unheard of.

So here’s the thing. DH thinks he is a narcissist.
Theres other traits that he has, doesn’t seem to have empathy, love bombs people to get what he wants, uses them. Lies ALOT, and won’t take responsibility for his actions, blames everyone else, always someone else’s fault.

I have always let things slide (I think because he’s love bombed me and convinced me he wasn’t wrong), but this I’m not letting slide because I feel very strongly about it and wonder if my husband is right. It is like he hates being wrong and so point blank won’t talk about it.

To add, a couple of days ago, when he was down for dinner, he’d given the dog a sausage I’d literally just got out the oven. I said not to as he was doing it because it’s so hot. Then comes, oh here you go, moaning at me again. Dog woffs the sausage down, only for a second later to vomit back up. As I was explaining it’s because it burnt her throat, he walks off back upstairs choosing to have no dinner that night. DH said see, he can’t admit he was wrong and you were right. He’s rather be hungry all night than say sorry.

I feel this week has really opened my eyes.
He can be such a lovely boy, can be fun to be around, but yes, also makes me (and his dad and sister) feel like we walk on eggshells alot of the time.

I guess im asking for advice on how to get him to talk to me and also if he does have narcassist traits, how we deal with that

You and your DH know him better than anyone else.

What did he do at the remembrance service and what were his reasons?

It's normal for tweens and teens to be narcissistic to some extent. They've very self absorbed at that age! He sounds particularly spoilt and selfish though and tbh it sounds like that's down to you. Labelling him a narcissist though really isn't helpful (by your DH).
Not being able to admit you're wrong is a sign of very low self esteem - in fact NPD is rooted in trauma and low self esteem. I'd be working on his self esteem but with clear boundaries and expectations - they are as important. How much time do you spend doing things with him? I try and get that bonding in as much as you can if you can find something to do together.

I obviously don’t know the full story but I think highly unreasonable to diagnose a 12yr old as a narc. His behaviour is poor in these examples. But he’s just a kid and pushing boundaries. Many children are very egocentric. I hope your DH hasn’t said anything like this to your son.

Ridiculous and immature to automatically jump to the conclusion that your son is a narcissist - such an MN cliché. He’s a regular teenage boy that obviously needs to have boundaries reinforced.

DH said see, he can’t admit he was wrong and you were right. He’s rather be hungry all night than say sorry.
Maybe he felt overwhelmed and didn't want an argument.

My dd is autistic and when she was pre teen a close family friend tried to say she was narcissistic.

I'd look at other things first.

I think it's terrible that you're labelling your son as a narcissist for rather normal child behaviour.
Neither of you sound like you like him very much. I bet a lot of his behaviour is in reaction to how he is viewed /treated by you both.

It would be really difficult to diagnose a personality disorder in a 12yo, because many of the traits that define personality disorders are developmentally normal in adolescence. What worries me more is that you and your husband seem to be in the early stages of pathologising and scapegoating this child - I'm sure that isn't your intention, but it's worrying. There are a lot of internet buzzwords associated with amateur diagnosing of personality disorders in your OP. A 12yo who can be disrespectful, impulsive and stubborn is not an aberration. A young male who can't admit it when he's in the wrong isn't an aberration. A child who is delightful and affectionate when he's getting his own way isn't an aberration. These are normal behaviours. I think you should tell your husband to calm down and try to get back to normal, consistent parenting. It's a grind, frustrating and nerve- shredding at times, especially with young teens, but that doesn't mean there's something wrong with him.

Regardless of what label he has or doesn’t have, his behaviour needs to change. He’s going to really struggle in life, plus not be a very nice partner in the future.

I think the way you are dealing with this is part of the problem - if i need to discuss something with my ds he doesn't get the option to not discuss it, and certainly doesn't get to shout at me and i let it go.

its totally ridiculous that this has been allowed to rumble on for a week. The thing with the dog is awful behaviour, I would have gone nuts if my ds had deliberately burned the dogs throat!

Has he always been allowed to ignore you / disregard what you say? Thats a big part of the problem here OP.

No child can be diagnosed with a personality disorder. What you have described is nothing like narcissism.

If he’s a pre -teen then he’s a child. This is just how children behave sometimes. Narcissistic traits my arse, just wait till the teenage years kick in.

What did he do at the service?

Why are you allowing him to be in control of this situation by deciding he doesn't want to discuss it? Tough he has to. We would have been discussing it the first night it happened. In fact he wouldn't have even been allowed to step foot upstairs until we had spoken about it. Maybe it's typical teenage behaviour but maybe it's something more, I don't think it's helpful for PP's to be saying it's normal child behaviour, excessively lying is never normal.

You and your DH need to knock the armchair psychology on the head. Stop trying to label your child as a "narcissist" (ridiculous) and start being curious about what he's communicating through his behaviour. He sounds unhappy.

Has DS been bought up with parents owning their mistakes and apologising to him? Do you and DH role model apologising when it’s appropriate?

I think possibly it didn’t occur to him that a hot sausage could hurt the dog (he thought you were just getting at him) and he likely felt bad for the dog afterwards (and got at) but unable to express emotions in a manner you’re used to.

what exactly did school do to discipline him? Did they talk to him and explain? Did he think schools response was amble for his behaviour and your ‘chat’ too much on top of this?

You've all got yourselves into a stand off. Look at the bigger picture, whats your bond with your son like generally? Do you spend quality time with him each day and week? Do you think he feels appreciated, loved, respected, fairly treated, the black sheep, the scape goat? Does he have ND traits which mean he interprets and expresses things differently?

Teens brains are wired to be self centred but they grow out of it.

Poor kid.

His mum accuses him of love bombing her and his dad accuses him of being a narcissist.

These aren’t words you just throw around.

There is a reason we do not diagnose anyone with having a personality disorder before the age of 18.

He’s a child going through puberty and it sounds like he can’t do anything right.

Instead of questioning your parenting or feel he’s a pain in the ass like many teens, you have both labelled him in a very extreme way.

Give him a break.
Is he an only child?

Also he’s a kid, kids make mistakes

Absolutely this!!

OP@Preteenstruggle do you recognise use either of these 2 scenarios in your parenting? Grandiose Narcissism
People with this behavior were most likely treated as if they were superior or above others during childhood. These expectations can follow them as they become adults. They tend to brag and be elitist.
Those with grandiose narcissism are aggressive, dominant, and exaggerate their importance. They are very self-confident and aren’t sensitive.
Vulnerable Narcissism
This behavior is usually the result of childhood neglect or abuse. People with this behavior are much more sensitive. Narcissistic behavior helps to protect them against feeling inadequate. Even though they go between feeling inferior and superior to others, they feel offended or anxious when others don’t treat them as if they’re special.
……if not, perhaps he is just being a 12 yr old boy and you and your husband might need to have a chat about parenting him differently. Children don’t automatically learn to be social beings, we all have genetic personality traits but parenting and social conditioning is what shapes us to be nice human beings ,to learn how to apologise , how to treat others with respect, how to deal with being in the wrong. He may be feeling extremely embarrassed and humiliated, especially if he was pulled up in front of all his peers at school , and not know how to come back from this position. Being pulled up at school or made an example of can feel like social death for teens, their peer group is very important at this age hence why is a battle between parental influence and peer pressure!

I completely agree.

There’s also the possibility he’s mortified about what happened in school - what he did and the schools action. He may already understand the significance of the two minute silence and find the second onslaught at home too much.

I agree too

The feeling I'm getting is that he can't handle shame. Fair enough, it's a big emotion at that age! Being caught out or accused, he has to double down because the feelings of being wrong or bad or embarrassed are so unbearable to his sense of self.

I guess the lesson he needs is that, if you do something wrong, you can learn and come back from it, it needn't destroy or diminish you as a person. Maybe try to put some power back into his hands by asking what he thinks he did wrong, and how he should handle this or make amends? So he feels he has some control over his morals and actions. And instead of him having mortification for himself, guide it towards empathy for others.

But I like how you stood by the school's punishment, that's strong parenting. It's a chance to teach him that things do go wrong sometimes but it's how we take ownership that 's important. Good luck!