Is pre teen a narcissist?

[Preteenstruggle]

DS is 12.
Last Friday at school he got an internal isolation and detention for doing something disrespectful around remembrance day in class. I support the school, the sanction matches the action.

He got back from school on Friday and took himself to his bedroom. I tried talking to him about it and he just shouts and deflects it. Says what can I teach him about history.
He has sent himself to his room, I haven’t told him to or grounded him. I just want to talk about why he did it, the importance of Remembrance Day, then we can move on.
So since Friday, he has been out of his room only for school and for breakfast/dinner/lunch. Then straight back to his room after shouting at everyone about how we shout at him.
We haven’t shouted at him, but I have told him this isn’t going away. We will discuss it and life doesn’t move forward until we do.

This has been a week now. He is a very sociable boy. Talks to friends on the PlayStation (in the lounge), plays football out the front, goes fishing at weekends. So he’d rather give all that up, instead of just talking to me about the stupid thing he did. A whole week without interaction with his friends is unheard of.

So here’s the thing. DH thinks he is a narcissist.
Theres other traits that he has, doesn’t seem to have empathy, love bombs people to get what he wants, uses them. Lies ALOT, and won’t take responsibility for his actions, blames everyone else, always someone else’s fault.

I have always let things slide (I think because he’s love bombed me and convinced me he wasn’t wrong), but this I’m not letting slide because I feel very strongly about it and wonder if my husband is right. It is like he hates being wrong and so point blank won’t talk about it.

To add, a couple of days ago, when he was down for dinner, he’d given the dog a sausage I’d literally just got out the oven. I said not to as he was doing it because it’s so hot. Then comes, oh here you go, moaning at me again. Dog woffs the sausage down, only for a second later to vomit back up. As I was explaining it’s because it burnt her throat, he walks off back upstairs choosing to have no dinner that night. DH said see, he can’t admit he was wrong and you were right. He’s rather be hungry all night than say sorry.

I feel this week has really opened my eyes.
He can be such a lovely boy, can be fun to be around, but yes, also makes me (and his dad and sister) feel like we walk on eggshells alot of the time.

I guess im asking for advice on how to get him to talk to me and also if he does have narcassist traits, how we deal with that

You said it yourself...you let things slide.

He is a kid. You haven't pulled him up in the past. Bad behaviour is bad behaviour. Now he's manipulating you and your feeling guilty.

People learn morals from their family, and their immediate adults. I am a royalist not because of my parents, but because my mates when I was 10 parents were.

You haven't taught him a moral code..not has your husband. It's hard to hear but it's true.

Sit him down, apologise for failing him, for expecting him to learn without you teaching, explain he's the child and your the parent. Then be a parent. Don't let him guilt trip you. Tell him how to behave, if he doesn't punish him

Oh my gosh I’m so sad it’s come across that DH and I don’t like him much.
We love him so so much!! We only want what is best for him, to have a happy future. Which is why we’re butting heads a bit now, because if the way he is now transcends into adulthood, I don’t think he will be happy.

Yes we do loads of things together, him and his sister choose what we do most weekends. Life is very much centred around days out together. It is getting less so with him now if he chooses to see friends instead, but we understand that, and I’m often a taxi to him and his friends taking them here and there.

Of course we haven’t said anything to him re narcissism. Perhaps we were too quick to think along those lines. We’re not trying to be armchair psychologists, but also aware that narcissist adults have been children at some point and we’re thinking are there any parents out there with adult children that spotted something in their children when they were younger. As I say, I only ask to possibly be guided in some way, to help him.

Anyway, if you guys picked up from my tone that we didn’t like him, maybe he’s picked that up too, so first thing is we’re going to address that with him.
Breaks my heart that he possibly thinks that.
Interesting someone said he may be embarrassed about what happened and that’s why he doesn’t want to talk-I hadn’t thought about that, thank you.

No more pop psychology for you and your DH. You'd be better off investing your efforts in communicating with and actually supporting your DS. You know mostly his behavior is a reflection of your own parenting.

FFS. He's 12. He's not a narcissist he's a child who has not yet fully developed and is taking a bit longer to grasp empathy. You're supposed to be teaching him.

OP, I recognise what you're describing in the child of some friends. We believe their kid is a narcissist too. The lack of empathy, the love bombing, the getting what they want and then moving onto the next thing has been quite something to watch. This kid is positively Machiavelian. He fits the description of Grandiose Narcissism in @Oopsalala's post.

You know your child better than anyone else, he may just need more guidance but what you're saying rings true for the kid we know and we came to the same conclusion. He has spent the last few years trying to get his father out of the nest so he can manipulate the mother easier. He's just succeeded in that particular goal.

No.

Pre teens cannot be narcissists. Children can and often are narcissistic in behaviour. Only when they reach adulthood and haven’t grown out of these behaviours can they be diagnosed as suffering from NPD, but only a qualified psychiatrist can do this.

I do wish people would stop banding narcissism about on the internet the way they do these days.

Has your child had significant Adverse Childhood Experiences (this could include verbal abuse or "mild" sexual assault, severe enduring or even enduring low level bullying from peers or living in a home where there is a lot of fighting/conflict) because without that I believe NP D is unlikely ?

It sounds like he is sensitive to shame, possible low self worth and to be honest is acting out. I'm not saying he is a bad kid, it's not unusual for kids that are to be arseholes.

Children at this age can be very self absorbed.

sounds like you are directing him a far bit and he’s rebelling. Try not backing him into a corner. He’s clearly got a strong character! Which is a good thing.

Sounds like you’re letting the service chat you want to have drag on and on. Why? If it has to be spoke about then tell him to sit down and talk to him about it. He’s not an adult he’s not allowed to decide if he wants to talk about it or not. You make him. But maybe your letting it drag on because you don’t actual know what to say to him, so get your head around that and then sit him down and say it. He needs to see you being a sensible responsible calm adult not someone who constantly threatens a conversation that never happens, this really immature of you. And no he doesn’t sound like a narc, he sounds like a kid who gets away with it because you let him. And hurting the dog did no one go crazy over that, at him, id be furious if that was my pet. He’d have got a proper telling off.

@Preteenstruggle stop letting him isolate himself. Sit him down and tell him that you WILL be discussing what happened. That it's important to acknowledge our mistakes and remedy them. But they don't define us. Tell him about a time that you got into big trouble as a child and how you felt. Tell him how much you love him and that won't change even if and when he gets things wrong. It sounds like he really struggles with shame.

Fuck sake labelling your son as a narcissist and saying he is LOVE BOMBING you what the fuck 🤣
He's a 12 year old lad. They are annoying and they push the boundaries but to jump to the conclusion that he must be a narcissist is ridiculous.
No wonder he doesn't want to engage with his parents.

I hate this trend of people saying "red flags" oh narcissist and love bombing it's rather quite annoying

Really insightful, thank you. We will use this

Excellent post.

Here's the thing, all kids have the capacity to be dicks. Most of them are at some point or another.

A lot of them can't actually cope with the feelings that come with fucking up, mainly shame. This can manifest in them lying, doubling down, avoidance, fight etc.

Your son is actually punishing himself, no social life, no gaming , no interaction at home , for the sake of what? A 10 minute chat? He can't be as manipulative as you think he is , otherwise he'd say all the right things and end up with a cuddle and a there ,there. He's actually missing out here,Unless he has his phone with him and still chatting away and fucking about in his bedroom. You will know which it is.

Agree with this, great advice for OP.

I have done workshops around shame, as it's related to my job role. It's such a huge influence on our behaviour and actions. I would suggest looking into some Shame Training classes. They really are excellent at helping us understand ourselves and others better!

Thank you. That’s what we’ve been sitting here saying. It’s not the not action of not talking after he does something wrong we should be focusing on, it’s the shame that he feels after which is what he can’t cope with.

Is your DH his biological dad?

He did get a proper telling off. But as usual said I’m over reacting. I broke open a sausage, showed him the steam coming out, he just walked back upstairs rather than say sorry or acknowledge what he did was wrong

Jesus Christ he just sounds like a kid

Brilliant, I’ll look into this, thank you

Yes

Great post! Shame is a big emotion at any age and that's really good advice on how to handle it as he grows.

As someone with a diagnosed and treated for PD, I couldn't agree more with this. Why is it seem as offensive to claim being a bit OCD because somebody liked things in order but it's ok for people to throw around the Narc label at someone who is healthy but self centered? People forget that PDs are debilitating mental health conditions!

Please delete the word narcissist from your vocabulary when talking about a child.
We become what our parents tell us we are. be careful.

You need family therapy