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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What do we think of the 4B movement?

101 replies

JFDIYOLO · 10/11/2024 11:40

It originated in South Korea out of the #metoo movement.

4 B comes from the Korean 'bi' meaning NO, followed by four things; no heterosexual dating, sex or marriage, and no childbirth.

It's intended to highlight and turn away from sex inequality.

It's currently being talked about a lot in the USA...

I wonder what the effect might be if this took off?

More women in female communities, maybe non religious convent type communities?

Probably an increasing rise in incel behaviour and assaults?

Also a knock on effect on dating aps, bars, clubs and their income?

What else?

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/4b-movement-trump-election-win-south-korea-b2643558.html

What is the 4B movement and why are women discussing it after Trump’s election win?

The 4B movement takes a bold stand against gender inequality – by boycotting men entirely

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/4b-movement-trump-election-win-south-korea-b2643558.html

OP posts:
KrisAkabusi · 16/11/2024 11:40

MeMyCatsAndI · 16/11/2024 11:11

Actually it's rocketed off in South Korea.

But it hasn't, that's my point. People keep saying this, but there's no evidence. At best all anyone can say is that five years ago it had 500-4000 self-declared members. There is no evidence that that number has grown.

https://www.asianews.it/news-en/South-Korean-radical-feminism:-No-dating,-sex,-marriage-or-children--48879.html

It's only in the news again because of Trump. There are no reports on it from 2021-2023, so it's far more likely it just died away rather than 'rocketed'. The only current reports are talking about it in relation to the new tiktok tweets, but none have any updated numbers other than "it's big in korea".

SOUTH KOREA South Korean radical feminism: No dating, sex, marriage or children

The growing popularity of radical feminist ideologies risks reinforcing the looming demographic disaster in the country.  A decade ago, nearly 47% of South Korean single women considered marriage necessary;  in 2018 the figure dropped to 22.4%.  The ma...

https://www.asianews.it/news-en/South-Korean-radical-feminism:-No-dating,-sex,-marriage-or-children--48879.html

Goldenbear · 16/11/2024 12:02

WokeKarenHereAskMeAboutStuff · 16/11/2024 11:11

Takes a strong woman to de-center men like this.
Most women don’t have this level of resilience.

Good for those who actually do this.

If it takes off, even in small numbers, it won’t be long until the movement gets watered-down.
Most women can’t live without male attention, so they’ll hook-up or get in a relationship / knocked up and start the usual ”Not my Nigel / Nigel.Jr, they’re special”.
And no movement loses it’s point.

Talk about internalising sexism so women that have physical relationships with men are weak? What happened to 'choice' being the motivation of the feminist movement. Are grown women not able or permitted to decide on their own destiny, even if you don't agree with it!

I absolutely don't understand why this would even be a consideration I'm the UK.

Bloom15 · 16/11/2024 12:15

WokeKarenHereAskMeAboutStuff · 16/11/2024 11:11

Takes a strong woman to de-center men like this.
Most women don’t have this level of resilience.

Good for those who actually do this.

If it takes off, even in small numbers, it won’t be long until the movement gets watered-down.
Most women can’t live without male attention, so they’ll hook-up or get in a relationship / knocked up and start the usual ”Not my Nigel / Nigel.Jr, they’re special”.
And no movement loses it’s point.

So by this logic, I am not a good feminist as I am a straight woman married to a man. Should I have joined a convent instead?!

Goldenbear · 16/11/2024 12:20

Bloom15 · 16/11/2024 12:15

So by this logic, I am not a good feminist as I am a straight woman married to a man. Should I have joined a convent instead?!

I know, ridiculous and phrases like, 'knocked up' are something a raging misogynist would spout in my book!

ByMerryKoala · 16/11/2024 12:25

Hmm, it does rather support my suspicion that these are simply anti-natalists who have attempted to utilise the current political disgruntlement by re-marketing their distain for population growth as an act of patriarchal resistance.

Flopsythebunny · 16/11/2024 12:33

KrisAkabusi · 10/11/2024 11:43

It's a load of nonsense based on a couple of tweets. It's not going to happen because most women aren't lesbian, and like dating, marriage, etc.

It's actually a big movement in south Korea. It has nothing to do with being a lesbian and everything to do with being sick to death of women being treated like shit

Goldenbear · 16/11/2024 12:47

Flopsythebunny · 16/11/2024 12:33

It's actually a big movement in south Korea. It has nothing to do with being a lesbian and everything to do with being sick to death of women being treated like shit

Yes, it msy well be that are huge cultural differences there and in the US that may be determining that trend.

Singleandproud · 16/11/2024 12:53

I think there is a real case for an all ages female only living facilities. Not a commune as such but more like the boarding houses of yesteryear, having a room to yourself but communal living and eating spaces down stairs like a catered halls, with men only allowed in the communal spaces if anywhere.

I think that would be very popular with those who don't want to live with a man either because they are widowed, divorced or just don't want to. I've been a single parent since I was 23, I'm very happy on my own and would definitely be interested in such a space for companionship etc. it would help those who don't want to rattle around a big house on their own once the DC are grown or for those new toan area and living away from home / uni for the first time.

barnefri · 16/11/2024 13:15

It's a meaningful and serious movement in South Korea.

It attracted some additional attention in the US in light of the election result, which led to an increase in the number of women joining 4B groups on Facebook.

This was followed by disingenuous whisperings of "I heard that in South Korea the 4B movement is really transphobic", followed by performative posts of "oh, no, I will not be associated with a transphobic group", which was very swiftly followed by the moderators/admins of said groups declaring that their group is pro-trans and open to TW, and any woman who disagreed was unwelcome.

Thus putting men at the centre of their supposed 4B groups. The irony is off the scale.

WokeKarenHereAskMeAboutStuff · 16/11/2024 13:31

Goldenbear · 16/11/2024 12:02

Talk about internalising sexism so women that have physical relationships with men are weak? What happened to 'choice' being the motivation of the feminist movement. Are grown women not able or permitted to decide on their own destiny, even if you don't agree with it!

I absolutely don't understand why this would even be a consideration I'm the UK.

I never used the word weak.
And, yes it does take a strong woman to remaing single / childfree in this world that is build around women becoming wives and mothers.
Surely you at least admit that.

I don’t care for the liberal, mainstream, choosy choice feminism.

It is interesting what huffing and puffing potential women wanting to stay single and not having kids this thread has.
We should be supporting women, also those who choose to be 4B.
Not supporting would indeed be internalised sexism, considering patriarchy wants us ’under his eye’.

username7891 · 16/11/2024 13:37

WokeKarenHereAskMeAboutStuff · 16/11/2024 13:31

I never used the word weak.
And, yes it does take a strong woman to remaing single / childfree in this world that is build around women becoming wives and mothers.
Surely you at least admit that.

I don’t care for the liberal, mainstream, choosy choice feminism.

It is interesting what huffing and puffing potential women wanting to stay single and not having kids this thread has.
We should be supporting women, also those who choose to be 4B.
Not supporting would indeed be internalised sexism, considering patriarchy wants us ’under his eye’.

I don’t care for the liberal, mainstream, choosy choice feminism.

So you're into authoritarian 'feminism'? One where women don't have whimsical things like choice?

Goldenbear · 16/11/2024 16:01

WokeKarenHereAskMeAboutStuff · 16/11/2024 13:31

I never used the word weak.
And, yes it does take a strong woman to remaing single / childfree in this world that is build around women becoming wives and mothers.
Surely you at least admit that.

I don’t care for the liberal, mainstream, choosy choice feminism.

It is interesting what huffing and puffing potential women wanting to stay single and not having kids this thread has.
We should be supporting women, also those who choose to be 4B.
Not supporting would indeed be internalised sexism, considering patriarchy wants us ’under his eye’.

No you didn't but it is absolutely implied by your post!

I don't understand that logical, a woman remaining child free is not particularly difficult to do in certain parts of Britain if that is where you live, in fact where I live, it is becoming unusual to have children as it has one of the lowest birth rates in Europe. Not having children can be purposeful but it can also be accidental just like having children is, It takes as much strength to be a mum guiding your children to adulthood to be respectful and happy (which is my mine objective) as it does to not do that so no, I don't agree at all with that premise!

You may not care for choice in feminism but it isn't a science, it is an idea so you are of that opinion, good for you but don't denigrate my ideas as they don't align with yours.

You have imagined the 'huffing and puffing' for whatever reasons only known to yourself but ultimately you are not going to get many posters agreeing with you on 'Mumsnet' that being a Mum is weak and giving in to society pressures.

Everyone keeps ignoring the cultural differences that make this an appealing option in south Korea or now the US. It is just not the same in most of Northern Europe!

Bloom15 · 16/11/2024 17:16

I am surprised @WokeKarenHereAskMeAboutStuff can bear to be around us 'weak' women on Mumsnet who have children

DuckDuckG00se · 18/11/2024 00:48

shuggles · 15/11/2024 23:38

@DuckDuckG00se Have you seen the posts by incels & misogynists? And how greatly they've increased? We're not talking small numbers here. Quite frankly, there's nothing petulant about saying you don't want to be involved with men when they will remove your rights and make it acceptable to abuse you.

So the best way to combat incel behaviour is... to become an incel? Amazing logic.

It's like the tagline for Batman Begins. "To conquer fear, you must become fear." Except for the 4B movement, it's "To conquer incel, you must become incel."

First, as someone else has pointed out, the definition of "incel" is involuntarily celibacy...

Secondly, suggesting women should keep sleeping with men to avoid being raped is the most reductive statement I've heard in a long time. One could also extrapolate from it that if sexual relations happen only for this reason then they are coercive and by modern legal definitions, still rape.

Thirdly, it isn't vengeance. Don't be silly. A woman, or many women, deciding that they no longer wish to be in modern, heterosexual relationships because so many men have voted in favour of second-class citizenship, removal of autonomy and violence against them is entirely logical. It's a fair choice and a choice that is any woman's right to make.

Indeed...any person's right. Arguing that women are wrong for doing so is to demand control of their bodies, their choices, their autonomy and is coercive. Quite frankly, I'm gobsmacked that any women could condemn another for exercising her free-will in such a way.

JFDIYOLO · 18/11/2024 10:05

@Singleandproud we had a nun in our family who was incredibly happy in her life.

A vocation of course but I can't help thinking it also got her 'why don't you have a boyfriend when are you getting married and giving me grandchildren?' mother off her back.

In secular life, all-female colleges were very much a thing - an intellectual community in beautiful surroundings, dining together, someone else cooking and washing up ...

OP posts:
shuggles · 18/11/2024 22:48

@DuckDuckG00se Secondly, suggesting women should keep sleeping with men to avoid being raped is the most reductive statement I've heard in a long time.

And in today's episode of "things which no one ever said"...

DuckDuckG00se · 18/11/2024 22:58

MoodEnhancer · 10/11/2024 12:34

I agree @StopStartStop. Extraordinary implication that if women decide not to have sex with men, it will result in men becoming more misogynistic and potentially violent. So men’s bad behaviour is women’s fault. As always.

@shuggles Perhaps read the thread

MrsBobtonTrent · 18/11/2024 23:05

It’s not new though. Convents, nursing (which used to be a single women’s profession only), lesbian separatists. Just a new snazzy name for a very old idea.

Always good to hear about women with standards, not scraping the barrel man-wise. More discernment would be positive for the human race.

shuggles · 18/11/2024 23:41

@DuckDuckG00se StopStartStop said "if women don't give men sex, they'll take it by force?" That person did not say that was justified, nor did they say that women should have sex with men to avoid being raped.

AliasGrace47 · 19/11/2024 00:37

It's not that women who have kids are weak, but that in the US the pressure on women to marry & have kid is v strong so it does take strength to withstand if that's not what you want to do.
I was on reddit today & one man was saying the 4B movement wouldn't mean anything as most of the men in 4B women's circles would've voted Biden anyway. But how true is that? It was v gender polarised. I'll need to look further.

Toastandbutterand · 19/11/2024 00:54

The best man I know is still worse than the worst woman I know.

Maybe just I'm unlucky with all the many men I've met, but I'm single, celibate and happy. Have been a looooong time.

I'm not putting out.

LoobyDoop2 · 19/11/2024 04:10

Women have never really achieved true equality because it doesn’t cause men (as a class) any pain to leave things as they are. Misogyny and violence against women and girls is increasing, because it doesn’t cause men (as a class) any pain to leave things as they are. Women’s lots will only genuinely improve when there is sufficient incentive for the majority of men to support change and make it happen, and that won’t happen until there are real consequences for them in not doing anything. So I fully support this, I think it’s the only way we will achieve genuine progress and equality.

However, I’m middle aged. I can support this without any real consequences or sacrifice for me, because I’ve made my choices and nobody cares what I do. I wouldn’t have supported it when I was 25, because the sacrifice would have been too great and the noise of my hormones was too loud. And the vast majority of young women are the same. The fundamental problem of sleeping with the enemy being a biological imperative.

AliasGrace47 · 19/11/2024 04:45

I know many people here are anti sperm banks, & I get why, but I think they can often be better than settling, esp in this climate. Imo, women should set high standards for men. If there are consequences, then they will have to change. On redpill forums, feminist allies get derided as bedroom feminists, & probs some are, but that is better than not at all.

On a related note, I think everyone - women and men - should plan their life with the knowledge in mind that they may never find the one. We don't like to admit it. But some never do, for many reasons, often no fault of their own. Even if you do, you may not always have them. My grandmother was happily married, but she's been a widow for 16 years, luckily she has good friends still & lives w us so she's not lonely. But she has single or widowed friends who are alone, have faraway children etc, and it makes me so sad how lonely they are.
Imo a lot of incel rage, esp in the US, can be traced to loneliness. Men in often manual jobs, w no woman for emotional support, told their self worth depends on having a good job & a wife. Femininity is far more flexibly defined in comparison. Male friendships are often more surface level, or about insulting to assert dominance, so sometimes men have no one else to lean on for fear of seeming weak. Fewer rl places to meet, instead online culture which promotes loneliness, as do dating apps. Incel forums should be promoting healthy male friendships & staying close to family, working & finding a passion, releasing sadness in a healthy way. Instead it's all about dominating women & unleashing rage against Chad, Stacey & Tyrone.

I think I have a different perspective on this as I'm lesbian & there's not that many of us.. I plan to try my hardest to find a forever person, & I hope I will. But I'm planning my life w the knowledge that I may not, & that close friends, family, goals & hobbies are the best way to be fulfilled when you're single. If I don't find someone by a certain age, I'll have a child on my own. That's what my mum did, & I was raised w support from my gran as well, which made it a lot easier. I think if there's an upsurge in misogyny, some women will need to consider single parenthood seriously. Otherwise there'll be an upsurge in abusive husbands & fathers, or a falling birth rate, & the far right may try & bring in something unpleasant to combat it.

Radamanth · 19/11/2024 04:51

I think it's good.

I think It's absolutely fine.

AliasGrace47 · 19/11/2024 04:58

I'm quite a fan of Lysistrata & in my copy they mentioned something about a modern one in Colombia, the 'strike of the crossed legs.' (I really dislike the phrase sex strike as it implies it's work). Apparently it had some success, though I'd want to research more into that.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexstrike

There's been others in Kenya, Liberia, Naples etc recently & apparently they may have been a tactic in prehistoric times.