What do we think of the 4B movement?

[JFDIYOLO]

It originated in South Korea out of the #metoo movement.

4 B comes from the Korean 'bi' meaning NO, followed by four things; no heterosexual dating, sex or marriage, and no childbirth.

It's intended to highlight and turn away from sex inequality.

It's currently being talked about a lot in the USA...

I wonder what the effect might be if this took off?

More women in female communities, maybe non religious convent type communities?

Probably an increasing rise in incel behaviour and assaults?

Also a knock on effect on dating aps, bars, clubs and their income?

What else?

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/4b-movement-trump-election-win-south-korea-b2643558.html

I’ve been doing it inadvertently for years.

The vast majority of men disgust me with their behaviour. I don’t want kids so I stay single and happy.

I only realised recently it had a name.

I've been the same this year after my divorce. I recently realised that almost every bad thing that's happened to me in my life has been done by a man, so I'm happy to stay this way for the rest of my life.

People can do what they want, but I think few who actually want any of those things will deny themselves for long, and to make a whole song and dance about it, especially when their actual rights haven't changed much, since abortion is still available and is decided on a state-by-state basis, makes them look ridiculous.

Well its good people have the choice but its an evolutionary dead end so unlikely to catch on in any meaningful way.

So, liberal women who feel betrayed by those who voted for Trump will withdraw from having sex with men, marrying men and forgoing parenthood?

I think it's unlikely that many will follow through on this in the long term. But it's an interesting idea with self defeating consequences if it's implemented.

Political perspectives are often forged in the home. I wonder what happens a generation later, when the voting population increasingly skews to the right because those on the left are highly depopulated?

So because 44% of women voted for Trump the other 56% should just suck it up?
That 44% of women apparently voted for him is irrelevant here, women both as individuals and as groups can make decisions like this without being called petulant.

I never described anyone as petulant. Whatbi said is that the previous poster is blaming men for the election result last week, but 44% of women voted for Trump. If just 10% of those women had voted for Harris it would have been a different result. This isn't men's fault, both sexes are to blame

I think the situation is different for US women than feminists who created the movement in Korea.

If I had daughters (13-22) in education and I lived in the US, I would definitely be having conversations about abstinence. With the removal of women's rights it makes sense to abstain from sexual relationships. No sex, no possibility of a child, no possibility of having parenthood forced on you or adversely affected your career.

However I would tell my child not to promote being a part of the 4B or any movement because that could lead to them being targeted by incel men. Rather now more than ever before be more mindful/careful and pick better partners.

There will always be women who are happy to have casual sex and those that are happier being single. For the next 4 years the Republicans have got what they want, which is to stop women from having casual sex and a reduction in the number of children being born into single parent families.

I doubt 4B or long term abstinence is plausible for large amounts of women but I take what is being promoted on social media with a pinch of salt.

In the UK we have a situation where hardly any rapes are prosecuted and a finding a rape conviction is something like finding a unicorn. Rape is effectively legalised. Men don't rape because women 'won't give them sex'. They do it to demonstrate their power.

I don't see the point. If you want to be celibate I doubt anyone cares. Ditto if you don't want to marry or have children. It comes across as attention seeking.

If you want to change things for women become an activist.

Lysistrata minus the Peloponnesian war.

Exactly!

I am a heterosexual woman- I like sex with men. I am married so have sex with my DH.

I do joke with my friend who is a lesbian, that no woman would I choose^^ to be straight

@OnlyTheBravest

"If I had daughters (13-22) in education and I lived in the US, I would definitely be having conversations about abstinence. With the removal of women's rights it makes sense to abstain from sexual relationships. No sex, no possibility of a child, no possibility of having parenthood forced on you or adversely affected your career."

Actually after initially seeing 4B as as batshit movement, you make a very logical argument in favour of abstinence.

I would say that is activism for some people, most people who go down that route have made that active choice for a reason, it’s a reaction. It’s like a silent protest.

Of course, anything can be activism. I recycle knowing it's not going to make much difference globally. I don't shout about it on social media, but that's just me.

@DuckDuckG00se Have you seen the posts by incels & misogynists? And how greatly they've increased? We're not talking small numbers here. Quite frankly, there's nothing petulant about saying you don't want to be involved with men when they will remove your rights and make it acceptable to abuse you.

So the best way to combat incel behaviour is... to become an incel? Amazing logic.

It's like the tagline for Batman Begins. "To conquer fear, you must become fear." Except for the 4B movement, it's "To conquer incel, you must become incel."

Incels are involuntarily celibate surely.

Totally fine if individual women (or men) don’t want to date, have sex, marry, or have children. Good for them for knowing what they want and sticking with it.

Bit silly if people do want sex, kids etc and are deliberately abstaining to make a point - literally nobody else cares. It’s like taking poison yourself and waiting for the Donald to die.

It’ll be a cold day in Hell before women achieve equality in the US, so you are just doing yourself out of things you do actually want to have, to make a point to somebody who isn’t listening and doesn’t care.

4B is kind of the opposite of incel. Voluntary celibacy, not involuntary. A vol-cel, I suppose.

Do you seriously expect me to believe that sexual and romantic frustrations have nothing to do with some women choosing to go 4B?

Well they aren’t choosing 4B because evil men are withholding sex from them, and I don’t think any 4B women are arguing in favour of assigning unwilling men to women provide them with sex and children. So pretty different in most fundamental respects.

Yep.

It’s a fad. ‘Oh look at me, I’m so brave and virtuous and principled’. Attention seeking.

I think it's a good intellectual exercise, like a lot of more seemingly unrealistic radical feminism. I think all women should follow it in the sense that no one should be dating a man who doesn't at least understand misogyny is still a big problem & supports the fight against it when he can, eg helping a woman on the train being harassed. Obvs men shouldn't endanger their lives, but there's always a way to help safely.
I follow it in that I would drop my male friends if they showed misogyny, luckily mine seem to be nice. Otoh I worry doing this will increase radicalisation for men who don't understand why women are angry. I'm still thinking about the best way to tackle sexism in men you know in your day to day life. Ideally other men should help sort it, but is that a vain hope atm?
Dating's not an issue for me as I'm lesbian.

Sadly yes, I believe many will. Lysistrata wouldn't have worked in the real Ancient Greece, I suspect ...

Def- I suspect though it's partly bc of the many gross misogynists springing up in US, w 'your body my choice' etc.. But that's a valid response. If men are behaving that badly, don't lower your standards to that! Obvs lots of men aren't, but misogyny is rising, sadly.