Top Unis - am I missing something?

[OnTheRoll]

DD is in Year 13, predicted 3 A, already has an A from a language A Level she did last year, and 11 GCSEs all 8/9. Got a great work experience in her chosen field, lots of academic reading, etc., etc. Has been working very hard and aiming for a top uni.

The problem is, it seems that unless she gets into Oxbridge, there isn't a suitable option for her?

We are in SE so decided not to go for Durham/Edinburg as the travel is just too much, 5+ hours, and she would not be able to come home more than once a term. She would very much prefer a campus experience rather than a city uni which rules out LSE/UCL in London.

There are of course great options like Warwick, Bristol, Bath, Exeter. We visited and DD loved them and so did I.

But I cannot help thinking that if she were to go to one of those unis she didn't really need to spend that much time working, studying and sacrificing her free time. Does it make sense? Entry requirements in those unis in her subject are all quite lower than her current and predicted grades.

Would appreciate some perspective.

Sadly, you are coming across as a uni snob.
If your daughter likes one of these 'lower' ones, why not let her go? It's her experience, not yours. She hasn't 'wasted' the time she spent studying, etc. That was good practice for applying oneself to work and tasks.

What the hell is wrong with people? How did we get to the stage where some parents believe that universities like Warwick and Durham are not good enough for their dc? This obsession with league tables is so damaging. These universities are full of A* students who will have stellar careers. Stop being neurotic and get a grip.

I was going to say this. I work in a uni and we get some students who transfer from Oxbridge. If you’re used to being the brightest kid in the room it can be a big adjustment to suddenly be average.

I’m not really clear why you don’t think any of the alternatives are suitable for her…?

Most people don’t go to Oxbridge, even with their 3 A* grades, and go to other excellent universities which are highly competitive and go on into fantastic careers.

At a Durham, Bristol, Warwick etc nearly every student will have similar grades.

One other consideration when selecting a university are the employment prospects after graduation. DD attends a university which is not RG, yet is a leader in its field for the subject she is studying and it prides itself on its extremely strong links to industry. Helping students have good internships arranged is also a priority and they have an excellent careers service.

Also being clever at uni and being clever for work/career after are not the same thing. A couple of the very high achievers in my year really struggled out in world of work and settled in academia.

doesn't want to be in a high-pressure environment and feeling inferior to super-bright students.

If she is 4a* she won't be inferior.

But she should do best she can and go some places with course and campus she likes whether they ask bbb or aaa

She should not assume people with bbb won't be equal to debates and discussion

Hi OP. I kind of see your point about ABB offers for Politics when she's working hard to achieve all A stars.

My DD was in a similar position with a similar subject application. She didn't really want to go up north (not because of distance, more to do with her perceptions of the cold in the NE)!

She ended up applying to London unis, even though she didn't particularly want to stay in London (because we live there she didn't feel the undergrad experience would be the same).

In the end, she got into Cambridge, but her other offers were Durham (A star A,A), UCL (A star, A,A), LSE (A,A,A) and Bath (A,B,B - lower offer due to EPQ).

If she hadn't got into Cambs, she would have really struggled between LSE and Durham. LSE was second only to Cambs in the Complete Uni Guide and its a globally-renowned institution. On the other hand, Durham (despite the weather!) would have offered more if a campus-type experience and enabled her to get out if London. But it's less known overseas and, it was lower on the league table for her subject.

So what I would say is, don't get too hung up on stated uni entrance requirements. Eg. for DD, Durham was A star, A,A and LSE 'only' A,A,A, but LSE was definitely more competitive entry than Durham for this subject.

In retrospect, probably the best alternative option all round would have been Bath. Even though it is slightly lower offers for social sciences and will drop a grade again for A star in EPQ, it's still higher in the league tables than most RG unis - including Durham in many cases. It's a similar distance to Oxford or Cambridge for most in the SE and a beautiful historic town. OK, the campus is a bit 1960s, but at least it's a campus. For DD's subject these days, Bath is ahead of Durham and the usual RGs like Edinburgh, Manchester etc etc. Has she looked at Bath?

Also, Oxford make humanities offers at A,A,A, even though the reality is nearly all students actually there will have all A stars.

I have seen unis such as Exeter, state A star,A,A as entry grades for some courses - only to then be in clearing with the same course at A,A,B.

So, in summary, have a look at Bath. Also, they really don't come home that much and England is a small country - Durham is not that far. Warwick has more of a STEM reputation and (I think!) the nearest towns are Coventry or Leamington Spa - and even those are a bus ride away.

Your subsequent posts suggest you very much don't like any other uni in this country apart from an Oxbridge choice

I kind of see what you mean ie what did she work ridiculously hard for if its to end up in a good but normal uni.

A few relevant points:

1. But equally plenty of people did work ridiculous hard to get into those unis. Some people get into oxbridge without so much work. Some people graduate from oxbridge and are lower on the pay scale than those with no degree or red bricks - no kidding, Ive seen this often. I guess life just isn't fair.

1. Good question- why did she sacrifice so much to the point she wasn't enjoying life? Or if on the other if she was enjoying life why conplain.

1. This knowledge and ability to pass tests will come in handy. She can easily get a 1st elsewhere and will have more time for extracurriculars, work and life.

I think you and your DD need to give your heads a wobble and come back down to earth.

You are going to be dismissing some if the great Universities out there because you don’t think they are good enough. I’d like to know how you came to the conclusion that Bristol isn’t prestigious enough???

My DD has been predicted 3 A* and an A and is applying to Edinburgh, Bristol, Durham, Glasgow and Sheffield to do Astrophysics. The grade requirements at all her chosen universities are different, but if you look on UCAS the majority of students who have chosen this course at these universities have all got stellar grades.

Manchester has hit higher grade requirements than Oxbridge. That will tell you something.

Your DD needs to look at everything before applying, course structure, city, accommodation, distance from home and then make a decision on the best university for her. Not solely on the most prestigious universities as you have dismissed some great universities from your list

I'm a little confused as to why she needs to be home so regularly? Isn't a large part of Uni learning to live alone without someone cooking and washing for you? A flight from Edinburgh is a couple of hours and often cheaper than rail. I'm hoping my DC will study abroad for a real life experience!

I was that straight A student. I didn't do it for universities (other than a good course at a good one). Parental pressure and expectations was big for me. Some internal perfectionist issues.
Looking back now I really could have unclenched and got the odd B and been happier. Am not pushing my kids academically beyond getting what you need to get to next step.

it depends if you think the only point to studying is to go to a 'top uni' - or if you want to just enjoy life, learning and then study a degree at a 'good' university!

Sussex is an excellent campus uni btw.

I wanted to go to edinburgh - didn't get it, got sussex and loved it - very 'political' uni if she loves politics - but from the more radical angle rather than the toffs and posh kids who will be at durham/ edinburgh/ oxford etc

You sound like a massive snob tbh.

Then I think the Uni course is more important than the status of the Uni. You may well have done this but it's worth unpicking every course, all three years. Everyone looks at the first year options/topics but have a good look at yr. 2 and 3. Some courses are better/more interesting/have the topics you want than others.
Some of the none Oxbridge universities you listed are very respectable in their own right.
Get some really good careers advice to help with the course choice. DD's Politics teacher may be able to help, if she has one.

Surely learning should be for its own sake.
Definitely. I went back to do a masters a few years ago didn't really need it for my career but felt after raising kids I needed to be challenged academically and do something for myself. Loved the experience, loved learning and developing again and pulling my thesis together. Did not for one minute think it was a waste of time (and money)

@OnTheRoll In terms of rankings, UCL is ‘better’ for politics but is not a campus university…

Your child wants good for politics, near the SE, campus - she should strongly consider Bath (top 10) and Loughborough (top 15).

Also worth remembering that your child’s (predicted) grades are not that unusual and many high performing students don’t end up at Oxford/Cambridge. She should still be very proud of her efforts and achievements; just realistic in her expectations.

She's not the first young person to struggle with the idea of compromise. Often in life there is no perfect option and we have to weigh up the pros and cons and choose the best available option.

Your job as the parent is to help her see that, and that (clichéd but true) hard work is her own reward.

She's a very fortunate girl with lots of options. She'll be grand.

She’s hardly going to go to Harvard or anywhere overseas if she thinks Durham is too far.

She’s really limiting her options by being scared to be more than a couple of hours away from home. Most people surely only come home for holidays and not even then - I would often stay for the holidays, it was great fun. She’ll be 18/19, an adult woman. I’m sure you could convince her that a few hours on a train to come and visit home is do-able. You can fly from Edinburgh in 45 minutes to Heathrow!

Plus if she’s doing Politics (which I did at Bristol!) it’s a fairly easy timetable with loads of the work done in your own time, so she wouldn’t be restricted if she needed to travel back.

Help her spread her wings!

You go to any Russell Group uni, your daughter will be just one of many with those results even if their “offer” was lower. That’s the beauty of it. They accept a wide range and everyone has different strengths, but plenty will be there with the same as hers. There might also be national/international standard athletes there for example. The offer is lower because they want her, not because they aren’t good enough for her!

Currently it might feel like at school she’s a big fish in a small pond.

At uni she will still be a big fish, but now in a massive lake.

Also there is more to working hard/results than just doing “enough” to get to the next step. In future graduate scheme selection could come down to those grades if there is no other differentiator. It’s also a valuable lesson to always try your best. And she has done, and got great results for it!

You sound humble braggy….

“She says she has been working hard during secondary school and doesn't want to be in a high-pressure environment and feeling inferior to super-bright students. That she wants to have fun at uni as well as study.” OP@OnTheRoll please listen to what your daughter is saying. A family member went to Oxbridge, crashed and burnt and has never worked since. My local, prestigious uni has,every year, students committing suicide . There is a fine line between pushing someone to acheive and pushing them over the edge….life is about far more than prestige, top unis, qualifications, none of which predict whether someone is going to become a healthy,happy,well balanced adult who has successful relationships and a successful working life.

You are totally ruling out universities all over the country because you want her to come home more than once a term. Then you’re glum about the seemingly limited choices left. It’s a self-created problem, really. Five hours is absolutely nothing and by talking about that as some sort of insurmountable obstacle you’re probably making her worry that she’ll be lonely and homesick and won’t cope without seeing you every four weeks. Many international students or those from around the UK deal with that if they go to Oxbridge. Time to encourage independence and have some Zoom calls! I travelled five hours to my uni and only went home every break - I’ve survived to tell the tale.

It depends on the Uni and the student. When I went to Manchester in the 70s (a lifetime ago, I admit) the weekends were like deserts. There wasn't much to do and few people about. Students went home for the weekend if they could because so many people lived so near. I was an expensive train ride away from home and went home once a term, possibly.

Isn't this part of adult life? She has ruled out some of options due to distance and now has less choices left. If there were endless prestigious options they wouldn't be prestigious any more!

It sounds like she could do with a gap year to be honest OP. If she’s focused on the US, could she do camp America?

The message implicit in much of this from OP, is that the focus has been very much on working hard and obtaining the best grades possible. Nothing wrong with that at all, but it doesn’t sound as though it’s left much room for leisure time, hobbies, interests and generally just being a young person getting together with friends.

From my perspective, university is about much more than the supposed prestige of a ‘ name.’ It’s about developing independence, coping strategies, learning to fend for yourself, learning resilience, planning time effectively and last, but not least, having an enjoyable and worthwhile experience with friends and relationships.

I think the daughter is correct, that the Oxbridge environment is less conducive to leisure time and experiences and she is less likely to have a rounded time there.

I don’t think that a university education should be simply about preparing for a career. Thats part of it, of course, but if it were simply that, every graduate would be finding employment in the area they studied and that simply isn’t the case. Unless, of course, you follow the degree by a post graduate qualification such as PGCE.