to wonder if narcissism is really that common?

[Kibble29]

It seems like it’s become a generic answer for anyone who’s selfish, thoughtless or inconsiderate.

The estimation is that around 5% of people are narcs, but that the undiagnosed cases may mean it’s higher.

On mumsnet at least, so many people claim to have a partner whose ex wife is a narc, people say their mum is one, their boyfriend is one…

What do you think? A common condition or an overused buzzword?

If you've never had a need to identify and name damaging, dysfunctional behaviour patterns, you should count yourself lucky - not superior. People have been sharing stories about these same patterns since civilisation began.

@Rhaidimiddim the reality of what goes on in society and what we are surrounded by is actually rather unpleasant, it is far safer psychologically to shut things down and laugh about it for the majority I believe.

@Rumors1
I empathise. I've had scary experiences with a sibling like this myself. NC eventually when I found the courage.

@OneAmberFinch I understand it sounds ridiculous, fantasyland, like something out of a film, ( cue Wizard of Oz).

Sadly, dysfunctional narcissistic families do follow a formulaic pattern of behaviour. Roles are assigned , often subconsciously, and when you live it and learn the psychology of it, you recognise it in others. If you haven't lived it, it makes no sense. That is understandable.

I think it's important to highlight the fact that many people subject to these familiy systems are left severely impaired, requiring years of therapy in many cases. It's therefore not really something to be sneered at.

I imagine at one point people wouldn't believe Priests might systematically touch up little boys. The thought for many would have been laughable. We know better now.

I agree with numerous posters with regard to the fact that narcissists do exist. I would say a big issue with them is not being able to have a normal conversation without them twisting and distorting facts. I don’t know if you’re aware of Rebecca Humphries who dated comedian Sean Walsh, he called her crazy but had numerous narcissistic traits (lying, manipulative, fragile ego) as she detailed in her book.

Sure, name them, but these things are subjective. Other people will have a different, competing narrative -- that's part of the reason why family relationships can be so fractious. There's obviously nothing wrong with naming a situation as damaging to you. My issue with throwing around terminology like 'narcissistic' is that it makes an objective claim and a pretence at diagnosis, when what is usually meant is 'someone I experience as damaging'. There's a difference between 'I experience my mother as hostile, dishonest and manipulative' and 'My mother is a narc'.

And yes, obviously there are narcissistic individuals in the world, but nowhere near as many as one would think from threads on Mn.

I think narcissistic traits can rub off . I believe the buzz word is narcissistic fleas . I think my BIL is one and it's definitely rubbed off on my SIL . Apparently her personality has changed since she's been with him .

Yep . They can be very charming and charismatic. Very good at getting into people's heads . If they turn their radar onto you look out as they won't stop until they destroy you especially if they see you as an object in the way of what they want . I saw a narc worm his way into the affections of management and within six months was running the place to suit himself . Always keep on the good side of a narc .

You have to know someone with NPD and lived it to understand how horrendous it is. Once you have; there is NO doubt whatsoever. You will ALWAYS spot it.

I dont care for me (lawyer did not have experience of NPD and it showed) luckily court ordered child psychologist totally clearly did. But I care for my DD in her day to day life who cannot get understanding from friends. They simply do not get it. Or worse, think she is lying when she says he sold all her things, doesnt contact her, locked her out of her home, stole her dog etc.

It is so isolating. Designed to make you feel mad.

The posters minimising it I am pleased for; they have NO idea. Long may that stay so.

Posters saying "MIL is a narc" are bloody irritating.

I think that what happens is that the disordered thinking of a narcissist (particularly a covert or vulnerable narcissist) becomes "normal" to the victim. It has to as otherwise they would not stick around. They absorb the thinking and the messages. To be fair, this happens in all relationships - there are things I now accept and think are normal as a result of being with DH that I would not have when I was younger, for example.

This disordered thinking then might well creep in. So, a very simple easy example might be that the person with narcissistic traits cannot and will not take responsibility or accountability when they do something to hurt someone else. So a woman whose husband regularly uses hurtful language or verbally abusive language is told repeatedly that she's over reacting. That her response is HER problem. That he has the right to say whatever he likes. That if she tells him he's being unkind or cruel, she is using those words to control him.

So she starts to think that perhaps he's right. She has been over sensitive etc.

Then she talks to her mother. They get into a fight. She says and does things that are particularly cruel or unkind and hurts her mother's feelings. her mother wants an apology. She says that she does not understand why her mother wants an apology - it's not her problem that her mother is upset by her words, they were just the truth or what she sees as the truth. etc etc etc.

I don't think that's a person becoming narcissistic. I think that's a person who has been abused and has started to see certain behaviours as normal. Unfortunately, yes, that could lead that person to become abusive themselves.

Edited to add: incidentally, this all works in the narcissist's favour - he wants her to be isolated and separated from her family and friends. The more he can convince them that SHE is the crazy one, the better. So it's a win win for him.

I don't even think they "design" to make you feel mad, @BlackStrayCat. A psychopath might, but people with disorders like NPD can't grasp that other people are independent humans with separate lives and feelings of their own.

All people with personality disorders live in their own heads - OK, everyone does, but most of us also understand that we are part of a wider whole: we know other people have agency; we can imagine what it's like to be in someone else's shoes; we accept that their priorities may differ from ours. In PDs, we others exist as roles within their personal dramas. They get very upset when we fail to play our parts as required ... which is going to happen, since nobody else knows the script!

As well getting mildly exasperated by the confusion between 'highly narcissistic' (meaning self-regarding) and NPD (meaning 'mad'), I'm irritated by the use of ND to mean 'on an autistic spectrum'. Personality disorders are neurological, they're social malfunctions caused by abnormal brain circuitry. They can't be reasoned away - the best a therapist can do is help a patient to adapt, which autistic people would call masking.

@Garlicpest I so agree. I might have said this on this thread or perhaps it was on another one but one of the things I've had to get my head around is feeling genuinely sorry for people with narcissistic personalities because I think over time as things unravel for them it's so incredibly confusing for them, but simultaneously, I hate the person the person with every fiber of my being. The cognitive dissonance of feeling those two things simultaneously is really quite difficult.

But I think it's this that also makes them so damaging to the rest of us. When we live it, it's almost impossible to understand. When you're not seeing it and feeling it day in and day out, it's impossible to believe. particularly because to be honest, most of the time these people are not doing it to be mean or because they are purposefully attempting to manipulate or damage a person so they genuinely seem like nice people or people who are struggling, or both, to the outside world.

@MrSeptember many people who have experienced this and now see it clearly, will nod in recognition at what you just described.

Reason being that these relationship dynamics with a narcissist, whatever type, in families and intimate relationships, follow very formulaic patterns of behaviour and corresponding roles for those subject to them.

I just turn away from any post where someone describes someone else as a narcissist. To me, it is just a shorthand way for the poster to state in advance that ANY difficulties that she has in her relationship with a particular person is that other person's fault by definition.

See also: toxic

We have developed a labelling culture. We have one set of labels that we apply to ourselves to demand that OUR difficulties are viewed with compassion, and another set of labels that we apply to others to demand that OUR difficulties with them are viewed with compassion and THEIR difficulties are NOT viewed with compassion.

Yes buzzwords are always overused, but probably more so on Mumsnet as it is a strange little universe where everyone has a narcissistic ex, a £200k salary, a mortgage free house, twins with suspected ADHD, an outing hobby they can't talk about and an overbearing MIL they have gone no contact with.

The thing is, never mind the labels, before forums like MN existed, I suspect a lot of people with narcissistic personalities had a much happier and easier life. Because what they did was hidden. And in the real world, so few people are really truly impacted by them that, as has been said repeatedly on this thread, no one would believe the victim.

But today, we can share our experiences more widely and the result is that someone who is experiencing this type of behaviour will find people who believe and understand the reality of it. And that validates the person.

Of course, this can go too far and someone who was a bit of a dick once in January is labelled a narcissist or an abuser or whatever it is.

NOT a narcissist example, but because of the narcissistic abuse that I witnessed and the reading and reseearch I did as a result... let's just say that I was not entirely surprised when a friend told me recently that her H had left her and that he has a new girlfriend (although apparently she was NOT the OW). Why? Because I recognised the signs of controlling and abusive behaviour. Do I think her H is a narcissist? No, or at least, I certainly don't have anywhere near enough information. But I absolutely can and do recognise abusive behaviours. I had forgotten but I actually posted a thread a couple of years ago asking how I could support her in what I suspected was a controlling relationship because although we're friends, we're not close friends, and my options felt limited.

Well, the syndromes have always existed, @Swanbeauty! They've been called different things at various times, but people have always been aware of character types with certain inflexible behaviour patterns.

Most recently, you might have been called scatterbrained and your bro would've been called grandiose or accused of having a god complex. Our current labels are part of a drive to itemise the behaviour patterns - to describe them more comprehensively - for purposes of better understanding and management.

@Swanbeauty I thought the same regards ADHD also being in common parlance when looking at this thread.

I agree. We now know things we didn't in the past. I feel it's incredibly helpful and nothing but positive for so many.

Because of what appears like an explosion in narcs and individuals with ADHD, there is quite a backlash and at times vitriol regards 'labelling' I notice.

I personally don't understand this, other than the fact that people don't want to believe or accept so many people are and always have been Autistic or ADHD. Also, that a large proportion of people are narcissistic in their personality type and no one wishes to believe that reality. It's too dark.

Most victims of narcs have blamed themselves for every unpleasant action of narcs around them, ( another formulaic pattern) so I rarely see victims eager to just absolve themselves of any responsibility by labelling people unfairly. Usually the opposite.

Having your reality complete invalidated is a common experience for those in relationship with narcs. Having others recognise the pattern, the role, and support you in that is huge. One thing I think is great here on certain dedicated threads. How empowering for victims of abuse.

Most here have the good fortune not to be too closely impacted or exposed.

The thing is with narcissists they're often extremely charming and engaging. They want to be popular and they want to be liked. Their delicate ego needs constant stoking so they are often popular and well liked. They quickly learn how to be what people want them to be. It's when you cross them that things can suddenly deteriorate and they will throw you under any bus they can or cut you off without a second thought.

I have the MN favourite - a narcissist ex. We were married for 23 years and I had no idea until the last 6 months or so. I actually realised after seeing the term covert narcissist on here and reading up on it. He was quiet, people pleasing, passive aggressive, changed his personality to be what he thought people wanted, never to blame/responsible for anything and he lied and gas lit and tried to cheat in any way he could.

This was all very hidden though, he never shouted, he never even got angry (anger is a weakness just like all negative emotions) he just manipulated me sweetly and kindly while behaving horribly behind my back. He thought he was incredibly clever. He would say something totally out there and then deny ever saying it or say it was joke and quietly think he was clever. I was so confused.

He told me at the end that he didn't feel empathy or remorse and considered himself god's gift to women - just couldn't understand why they didn't fall at his feet. He only went out with me because he thought he deserved someone to love him. He told me that it was my fault we got married (because i wanted to, I had no idea that he didn't) and everything that had ever gone wrong in his life had always been my fault. I was his scapegoat and he really believed all these things. He was delusional and a fantasist.

Once you see it and know it though, you do notice much more quickly if you meet another I think. There are 101 subtle things. It's like ASD/ADHD in that way i think once you've read up and you've known someone with the condition for a number of years you spot the subtleties in others.

@Jessie1259 all so familiar.

One of the interesting aspects for me is those who freely label others as narcissists often show those tendencies themselves. Their objection to the other person is that they have boundaries, they won’t do what’s wanted, ‘they are thwarting me, they’re a narc!’ They point, blame, and leave.

In reality those of us with direct experience tend to have come to the label reluctantly. We’ve spent years trying to please them. We just can’t do anything right. We’re such a disappointment/disaster. It’s only slowly that we realise that it’s them, it was always them, and nothing will ever be enough.

Then you start trying to manage the situation- work your way free or organise yourself to a place of safety. And from a distance may start to realise how sad it is, how distressing the narcissist finds it that people go out of their way to fail to follow the script, to disappoint, to thwart them. How sad it is that they’ll never have a decent relationship because they don’t know what one is. They literally can’t see how they work.

DM is on the outside looking in like a kid outside a candy shop. She can’t get what she wants and she thinks it’s our fault. The world is against her. What have I done to deserve this… etc.

Anyway. Just because some people throw Narc about casually, don’t assume no one is using it correctly. Many of us organise our lives around narcs.

I’d never heard this phrase before but absolutely believe it. I remember a conversation with my DF where my heart sank as he sounded just as mean horrible and cutting as my mother it was like speaking to her but his voice on the other side of the phone. I knew in that moment our relationship was not going to be the same again.