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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to wonder if narcissism is really that common?

97 replies

Kibble29 · 03/11/2024 22:31

It seems like it’s become a generic answer for anyone who’s selfish, thoughtless or inconsiderate.

The estimation is that around 5% of people are narcs, but that the undiagnosed cases may mean it’s higher.

On mumsnet at least, so many people claim to have a partner whose ex wife is a narc, people say their mum is one, their boyfriend is one…

What do you think? A common condition or an overused buzzword?

OP posts:
Unexpectedlysinglemum · 04/11/2024 14:51

Cardinalita90 · 04/11/2024 02:25

I think it's become hugely overused. I'd never met anyone I thought could be a narcissist until my last boyfriend. I've never met someone utterly devoid of empathy for anyone and anything, whilst also being totally convinced they were superior to everyone else in every way. It was an unshakeable belief for him and the traits were so extreme that it made me believe he was a narcissist.

I'm a strong character but after 9 months he had me doubting myself as everything I (and others) did was wrong and constantly picked apart. They are truly damaging people to be around.

Dr ramani book 'it's not you' will help you

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 04/11/2024 14:51

CheekyHobson · 04/11/2024 02:27

Five percent is one in 20. So if you know 100 people, you probably know five narcissists and they are probably the people you’re going to come to Mumsnet to have a moan about.

Exactly. It's not that rare!

BertieBotts · 04/11/2024 15:17

downwindofyou · 04/11/2024 07:33

@Kibble29
It's 0.5%-5%

It's impossible to know but the reality is that it will likely be somewhere between the two numbers.

The worldwide pooled prevalence of ANY personality disorder was 7.8% .Rates were greater in high-income countries 9.6% compared with LMICs 4.3%

So the likelihood of the high number of people on MN having family members with NPD is highly exaggerated

mentalhealth-uk.org/help-and-information/conditions/personality-disorders/types-of-personality-disorders/

This sounds more realistic in terms of numbers. Thanks for the breakdown.

However, I do think your post represents a common misconception - if something is 0.5%, so 1 in 200, that is rare in terms of it not being very likely to happen to you personally, but in a huge group like all MN users, which is something like 8 million, it is still an enormous number of those users.

I don't think all of the 8 million users post of course. But even if only 1% of them post, that's still 800,000. And 0.5% of 800,000 is 4,000.

And of course it's not 1:1 where each narcissist will only interact closely with exactly 1 person. (Though, if you've grown up with an narcissistic parent or close relative, then it is supposed to be more likely you'll accept narcissistic behaviour from a friend or partner because it won't ring alarm bells or come across as weird like it would to someone who isn't familiar with it - so I think they do tend to cluster up around the same "victims"). But even using this very small model, if there are over 4,000 people who regularly post on MN who have experience with a narcissist, then they are likely to be attracted to thread titles which make them go "Wait a minute..." and reply to them.

What I mean is, even though something can be less-likely in terms of personal experience, it's not that unlikely that you'll find multiple people, in a large pool like active MN users, who have had that experience.

To compare, one of my children has a very minor birth defect which occurs in about 1 in 700 births. It's rare enough that the midwife delivering him had never seen it before, and I had never heard of it before he was born. When I made a post about it with the name of it in the title, I received several responses (I think about 5-10?) within a day or so, from posters whose children have the same thing. I don't think they were lying and I don't find the number implausible. The thread fell down the board after a fairly short time - if the subject matter had been something more interesting, the thread may have remained bumped for longer and I may have received even more responses. I think that's the effect you see with narcissism as a subject.

Yes I do think there is a bit of "Ooh that person is an arsehole - must be a narcissist!" and that does cloud things a bit. But there are also people who really truly do get how weird and discombobulating it can be to deal with someone who fits the description of narcissism.

If you do the Dunbar's Number thing, where we can "know" roughly 150 people at once, that means if narcissism is about 1 in 200, most people probably know a narcissist. But of course we don't know all of those 150 people equally, only a handful of them (15 seems to be the number given in research) would be close enough that something like narcissism would be apparent.

If it's all spread out totally equally, then roughly 3/4 of people likely know at least one narcissist even if they don't know that they are one, and about 10% of those (or 7.5% of all people, so 1 in 13-ish) will have the experience of knowing a narcissist closely enough to be able to post about it on MN.

Those are just extremely rough, back of envelope calculations. But 7.5% or 1 in 13 - seems about right to me? Especially if you include people who aren't aware that the relationship/relative/boss/colleague they encountered was a narcissist, or that narcissism even is a thing which has a name, but if you were to explain the crazy-making feelings of dealing with them, they would immediately recognise it.

BertieBotts · 04/11/2024 15:19

(BTW 8 million was a number I found for MN active users, not MN total logins ever.)

QuickMember · 04/11/2024 15:20

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 04/11/2024 14:51

Dr ramani book 'it's not you' will help you

That’s an excellent book.

NotOneOfTheInCrowd · 04/11/2024 15:27

Vastly over used.

See also:
Gaslighting
Mental health issueS.
Anxiety.
“on the spectrum.”.
ND

MrSeptember · 04/11/2024 15:27

BertieBotts · 04/11/2024 15:17

This sounds more realistic in terms of numbers. Thanks for the breakdown.

However, I do think your post represents a common misconception - if something is 0.5%, so 1 in 200, that is rare in terms of it not being very likely to happen to you personally, but in a huge group like all MN users, which is something like 8 million, it is still an enormous number of those users.

I don't think all of the 8 million users post of course. But even if only 1% of them post, that's still 800,000. And 0.5% of 800,000 is 4,000.

And of course it's not 1:1 where each narcissist will only interact closely with exactly 1 person. (Though, if you've grown up with an narcissistic parent or close relative, then it is supposed to be more likely you'll accept narcissistic behaviour from a friend or partner because it won't ring alarm bells or come across as weird like it would to someone who isn't familiar with it - so I think they do tend to cluster up around the same "victims"). But even using this very small model, if there are over 4,000 people who regularly post on MN who have experience with a narcissist, then they are likely to be attracted to thread titles which make them go "Wait a minute..." and reply to them.

What I mean is, even though something can be less-likely in terms of personal experience, it's not that unlikely that you'll find multiple people, in a large pool like active MN users, who have had that experience.

To compare, one of my children has a very minor birth defect which occurs in about 1 in 700 births. It's rare enough that the midwife delivering him had never seen it before, and I had never heard of it before he was born. When I made a post about it with the name of it in the title, I received several responses (I think about 5-10?) within a day or so, from posters whose children have the same thing. I don't think they were lying and I don't find the number implausible. The thread fell down the board after a fairly short time - if the subject matter had been something more interesting, the thread may have remained bumped for longer and I may have received even more responses. I think that's the effect you see with narcissism as a subject.

Yes I do think there is a bit of "Ooh that person is an arsehole - must be a narcissist!" and that does cloud things a bit. But there are also people who really truly do get how weird and discombobulating it can be to deal with someone who fits the description of narcissism.

If you do the Dunbar's Number thing, where we can "know" roughly 150 people at once, that means if narcissism is about 1 in 200, most people probably know a narcissist. But of course we don't know all of those 150 people equally, only a handful of them (15 seems to be the number given in research) would be close enough that something like narcissism would be apparent.

If it's all spread out totally equally, then roughly 3/4 of people likely know at least one narcissist even if they don't know that they are one, and about 10% of those (or 7.5% of all people, so 1 in 13-ish) will have the experience of knowing a narcissist closely enough to be able to post about it on MN.

Those are just extremely rough, back of envelope calculations. But 7.5% or 1 in 13 - seems about right to me? Especially if you include people who aren't aware that the relationship/relative/boss/colleague they encountered was a narcissist, or that narcissism even is a thing which has a name, but if you were to explain the crazy-making feelings of dealing with them, they would immediately recognise it.

Exactly exactly this. It's something I often point out here too. That even if something is rare, in a large pool of people such as on MN,there will still be many AND people are more likely to post about their abusers or narcissists and less likely to post about how their DH brought them a cup of tea in bed or how supportive their boss is being which makes it seem like everyone is just willy nilly talking about narcissists, which is not the case.

My DS is a wonderful kid. Mostly. He is quite good at one sport, he's resilient, he has grown and made friends, he's independent, he's empathetic. I don't post about any of that. I post when his ADHD is getting me down or when we're arguing because he's pushed a boundary too far and I've lost all perspective. If you collated all my posts about DS, you'd think he was a demon child who should never be allowed out in public! Grin

BertieBotts · 04/11/2024 15:29

And (sorry I am on a roll but will go now Grin) remember that people who have experienced rare things are more likely to go looking for support online because if we only know about ~150 people IRL, then anything which is a prevalence of 1% or less tends to be very difficult to find anyone IRL to discuss it with - you probably know max 1 person with that experience, and they may be an acquaintance and it may be taboo to be open about it, but online, you have the benefit of enormous pools of users, anonymity which completely changes what topics are considered taboo, and thread titles are a sort of further screening tool to advertise or preview what you want to talk about - so it's far, far easier to find others with the experience that you want support with, even if it's rare.

So in fact it might be that people who have had weird, discombobulating and isolating experiences are much more likely to seek out online support like MN. That's similar to how "everyone has an autistic child on MN!" Well - no, not everyone, but there are a lot of parents of autistic DC on MN. Partly because 5% of 8 million is a lot, but partly because parents of not-autistic DC probably find it easier to socialise and get support from other parents IRL and might be less likely to come online in the first place.

newusern9999 · 04/11/2024 15:35

I suspect some of these people are actually ND rather than narcissists. A lot of people on MN seem to claim their MIL is a narcissist when the things they are complaining about could also occur in ND. True narcissism is a lot more than being self-centred and a lack of empathy.

Tittat50 · 04/11/2024 15:42

Everything @MrSeptember said.

Over 10 years of therapy as a result of being raised by an almost certainly NPD mother and NPD/Sociopath sibling. Only in the last year did this sink in for me. Like all of them I imagine, they're never going to go to therapy or seek a diagnosis so we work on guestimates. My wonderful therapist has spent 10 years trying to help me see.

There are often formulaic patterns of behaviours that becomes quite apparent and when you've been subjected to one and realise ( most never realise I believe) then you spot it when you observe patterns on others. Not just one example of being a dick either.

BUT, I am guilty in the past of narc behaviours myself! I think all of us do but there's a threshold whereby you see a consistent pattern of behaviour that tips it into the personality disorder.

What's typical with these scary people is I think most members of the public don't see it, only victims or those who had significant exposure.

I throw the word gaslighting around. I've gaslit people myself in the past just to avoid responsibility - before I knew better. I think the term gaslighting is fantastic to describe a behaviour which quite frankly so many people actually do without thought.

MrSeptember · 04/11/2024 15:53

newusern9999 · 04/11/2024 15:35

I suspect some of these people are actually ND rather than narcissists. A lot of people on MN seem to claim their MIL is a narcissist when the things they are complaining about could also occur in ND. True narcissism is a lot more than being self-centred and a lack of empathy.

I have a bunch of theories around this. One is that there is a strong suggestion that narcissism develops following childhood trauma. Id' take this a step further and say that poor parenting might not be as obvious as a trauma, but has a siimlar effect. Children are naturally quite narcissistic - they see themselves as the centre of the universe, they believe their views are the only relevant views, they are erratic in their thinking and behaviours etc. Good parenting, in a safe environment aims to mitigate and transform these behaviours so that the children become well rounded adults.

From here, I believe that children who are ND are more likely to experience trauma or poor parenting. Even well-intentioned parenting might be poor because parenting an ND child can be extremely difficult. This is likely ot be even more true (in the context of this "poor parenting" issue) when the ND is relatively "mild" and possibly undiagnosed. Eg we know that children with ADHD receive significantly more negative feedback over their lifetime than NT children. If you are the parent of a child with ADHD, but perhaps that's not recognised or understood, you would not be making much effort to mitigate this constant negative feedback leading to some mild trauma and to the child not being given the opportunity to learn and grow out of the narcissistic behaviours.

Then we come to MILs or rather just the trope of narcissistic mothers. Again, I think this is more complicated. I suspect that a lot of narcissistic women can't get away with the behaviour in their main work or romantic relationships. If you consider what happens in relationships wit a narcissist, often it's very controlling with a lot of gaslighting and a sense of entitlement from the narcissist. Women are programmed by society to be more giving, to accept a certain amount of this behaviour from men/people in authority etc, so a narcissistic man can display these behaviours at some level almost from day 1 but not have them necessarily reduce his liklihood of a relationship or promotion at work etc.

A narcissistic woman on the other hand probably has a smaller pool of people who will accept this OR, more likely, will have to hide these behaviours or will be generally unhappy because her disordered thinking makes her htink x or y even while everyone around her disagrees. But when it comes to children, the narcissistic woman suddenly has far more scope to unleash those narcissistic behaviours (which, ultimately, are not being deployed purposeflly but because the narcissistic personalily genuinely thinks differently to the rest of us). Narcissistic men may well also treat their DC in this manner, but as they are seldom the primary carer PLUS in many cases the narcissistic male is getting plenty of supply from their partner, it's not surprising that we seem to hear more about narcissistic men in the context of relationships and narcissistic women in the context of parenting (or MIL).

Tittat50 · 04/11/2024 16:05

@MrSeptember another excellent post.

I was raised in a narcissist family system. I obviously developed a personality based on that. I have an ND child. Myself and my family are not ND. This comes from the other parent side.

I often think when I observe particular behaviours, is this pattern of behaviour ND, is it my fear that it's the above ( created) based on all the huge risk factors of environment and temperament, or is it both.

Petrine · 04/11/2024 16:18

It’s 1% - 5% of the population

Pusheen467 · 04/11/2024 16:20

Radionowhere · 03/11/2024 22:59

Not all that common but once you meet one you know. I worked for one, and also employed one for a while. That was a nightmare.

Definitely. I've met two people who have textbook NPD - MIL and one of my exes.

A lot of people have some narcissistic traits (I do tbf) but not necessarily NPD.

CoffeeCantata · 04/11/2024 16:29

Just wanted to make/agree with 2 points:

The term is flung about loosely for any nasty, selfish, self-centred person but if you have met one - then you do recognise the syndrome.

I think social media over the last couple of decades have increased narcissistic tendencies in many people. For eg:

  • selfies and all the filters etc - the whole thing is so self-regarding
  • influencers: if ever there was a 'job' (and I use that term lightly) for a narcissist, then being an influencer is IT.
  • Facebook, Insta etc etc - all give people a platform to show off, be the centre of attention (the lead character etc), often involving manipulation of their real situation or just plain lying!
  • the cult of celebrities - which has mushroomed hugely over this time period. Just look at the amount of TV which is about celebrities, or would-be celebrities and their vacuous, materialistic lifestyles...which of course feeds into young people's aspirations to become famous, or to imitate celebrity lifestyles at the cost of other things in life.
Pusheen467 · 04/11/2024 16:34

Foostit · 04/11/2024 00:11

No it isn’t! Everyone’s ex has to be a ‘narcissist’ all of a sudden! Always diagnosed using one of these ‘how to spot a narcissist’ articles on social media, it’s the in word. What happened to people’s exes just being plain old garden variety twats or arseholes?

Garden variety twats 😂 Love it

Tittat50 · 04/11/2024 16:42

Petrine · 04/11/2024 16:18

It’s 1% - 5% of the population

I am quite fascinated by the subject due to my own family exposure. I need to do some further learning and research on the subject. That stat feels incredibly low.

I want to research for further clarity on what the difference is between NPD and someone who is a narcissist ( not just displaying certain behaviour occasionally but consistent patterns of behaviour regularly and consistently that are incredibly damaging to others).

@CoffeeCantata yes I watched a great podcast with the wonderful Dr Ramani who pointed out that narcissist personality traits will only rise now as a result of all the bullet points you highlighted.

I see fame seeking dicks as different to the type of people I have experienced.

Rhaidimiddim · 04/11/2024 16:45

@MrSeptember "Understanding that this person literally does not think like the rest of us" is the crux of it. When you're in a relationship, you think they are playing by the same rules as you - involving decency, honesty, consideration. But, while they can pretend these things matter, narcs have no rule book - they do what their ego needs, and then turn it on you when you remonstrate.

I wish someone had explained this to me a lot sooner!

And I think.it is wrong to try to shut down discussion of this behavioural condition because we're not all trained clinicians. If you've lived with a narc, you recognise the personality type and can help others understand who and what they are dealing with, regardless of the lack of qualifications.

Rumors1 · 04/11/2024 17:06

Great post @MrSeptember

My brother definitely has NPD. I think he may have ADHD (my sister likely has it and both my parents have "issues"). We grew up with childhood trauma (toxic parental marriage) and he was caught up in close dysfunctional family dynamics. He was "uncontrollable" from an early age, My aunt/GM had a huge input into his rearing and they spoilt him, my parents abdicated any responsibility saying they had no control over him.

He has no meaningful relationship with anybody. His wife is planning to leave him and his teenage DD hates him. She has grown up with him being very controlling and unpredictable. I dont see her often as they live in a different country but as she is getting older, I can see the N traits in her also.
I have no doubt she is suffering childhood trauma from being raised by him. Its a horrible cycle.
My dad is very selfish and MIL also, they show traits of N but I dont think they are. DH had quite a good childhood which I dont think you can have with a N. parent.

HamptonPlace · 04/11/2024 17:31

SensibleSigma · 03/11/2024 22:49

So 1 in 20? That’s not rare then. That’s three in every two school classes. If I have my parents, DHs parents, his siblings my siblings, the partners- there’s a good chance one is a narc.

It’s DM, if you’re wondering 🤣

that's a very small class size- which i would love.... 3 in 10?

SensibleSigma · 04/11/2024 17:42

HamptonPlace · 04/11/2024 17:31

that's a very small class size- which i would love.... 3 in 10?

My maths was based on one in 20 being the same as one and a half in 30.

As half children are far more unusual than narcissists, I went to three classes to get a whole number.

Have i misremembered maths?

HamptonPlace · 05/11/2024 14:36

SensibleSigma · 04/11/2024 17:42

My maths was based on one in 20 being the same as one and a half in 30.

As half children are far more unusual than narcissists, I went to three classes to get a whole number.

Have i misremembered maths?

Nope you have not... but seems i have - or misunderstood. As the dad in Dirty Dancing says- when i'm wrong i say i'm wrong!!

SensibleSigma · 05/11/2024 16:10

@HamptonPlace my maths is a bit unreliable- so if you’d said otherwise I’d have believed you! I tend to be a bit tentative with maths, as numbers are slippery beggars. I’m currently wrestling with an AL calculation that’s defeating me. I have a number. And no way of assessing whether it’s reasonable or not 🤣

OneAmberFinch · 05/11/2024 16:17

I always roll my eyes at posts that have a long backstory involving "flying monkeys" and "scapegoats" and "NMoms". Okay, I get it, you've been immersing yourself in Reddit self-help groups...

PTSDBarbiegirl · 05/11/2024 16:24

Shudder to say it but my ex was a violent, abusive, charming, manipulative type who hated women but purported to adore them. He literally couldn’t walk past a reflective surface without checking himself and was very vain. He was far more interested in impressing friends or acquaintances and thought nothing of dropping plans he’d made with his young children. Everything was about how others saw him and protecting the regard others had of him. People found it very difficult to believe he’d kick, punch, spit, verbally abuse his wife then the next day bugger off on a lads weekend. Emotional maturity stopped at 11, abusive home life, trauma. He WAS and still is a narcissistic disorderd person. Thank fuck I divorced him 20 years ago. Still got the scars and the chipped teeth though. Does that mean he is a narcissist?!